Want to keep my DACs sound but use external AMP for better bass response, possible?

[WaxDoctor]

Hi all,

So the challenge is this. I want to keep sound coming from my DAC (LG G5 smartphone) which I like alot, except it does not do bass well (I am aware of equalizers, but they don't do the job well). Is there a hardware combo for portable use that will let you keep the DACs sound but improve the bass with some external hardware?

I am guessing improving GAIN is not part of the solution as my FLC8n IEMs are quite sensitive. But I don't know enough about audio science to see a connection between gain and bass.

 

[amirm]

You would need a portable, battery operated headphone amp like JDS Labs O2. Then just use a 3.5 mm cable to connect both and you will have what you are asking for.

 

[twsecrest]

I'm guessing the bass issue is not with the DAC, but with whatever headphones (IEMs) you are using, do not offer a lot of bass

 

[WaxDoctor]

I'm guessing the bass issue is not with the DAC, but with whatever headphones (IEMs) you are using, do not offer a lot of bass

No way These IEMs have everything I ask for in regards to sub/bass on my Desktop DAC Scarlett 2i2 and my Xduoo X3 DAP.

 

[WaxDoctor]

You would need a portable, battery operated headphone amp like JDS Labs O2. Then just use a 3.5 mm cable to connect both and you will have what you are asking for.

Thanks. Fiio A1 and M-audio Bass Traveler also seem to be an option.
Do you guys have recommendations for any other pure AMP portables?

 

[twsecrest]

No way These IEMs have everything I ask for in regards to sub/bass on my Desktop DAC Scarlett 2i2 and my Xduoo X3 DAP.

Maybe contact LG's tech support, see if they might have ideas on what to check, on the G5's setting, that might effect bass, it's just strange that bass is not the same, as with other sources. I would have assumed a smartphone would drive IEMs better, then the Scarlett 2i2 (impedance issues).

 

[WaxDoctor]

Maybe contact LG's tech support, see if they might have ideas on what to check, on the G5's setting, that might effect bass, it's just strange that bass is not the same, as with other sources. I would have assumed a smartphone would drive IEMs better, then the Scarlett 2i2 (impedance issues).

Well like our master amirm said, a battery powered AMP should solve the issue So it seems bass is connected to the AMP even if the IEMs are easy to drive. As to why, I don't know. More power more bass I guess.

The Scarlett 2i2 beats my LG G5, there are no audiable frequency curve issues. Highs, mids, lows sound fantastic.
Scarlett-2i2
Current 9.5 mA per channel
Output Impedance
< 10Ω
Power Output into 150Ω
15mW
Power Output into 50Ω
30mW

FLC8n
Sensitivity: 107dB/mW @1Khz Impedance: 11Ω

 

[twsecrest]

Well like our master amirm said, a battery powered AMP should solve the issue So it seems bass is connected to the AMP even if the IEMs are easy to drive. As to why, I don't know. More power more bass I guess.
The Scarlett 2i2 beats my LG G5, there are no audiable frequency curve issues. Highs, mids, lows sound fantastic.
Scarlett-2i2
Current 9.5 mA per channel
Output Impedance < 10Ω
Power Output into 150Ω 15mW
Power Output into 50Ω 30mW
FLC8n Sensitivity: 107dB/mW @1Khz Impedance: 11Ω

It looks like the Scarlett 2i2's (gen 2) headphone jack has an output impedance OF 10-Ohms.
Which I would think would cause a bloated (louder, less detailed) bass (with 11-Ohm IEMs)?

Looking around, it seems there are know issues with the LG G5's headphone jack

 

[wiggum]

G5 measures ruler flat. I don't understand why you say that bass is not enough. Equalizing the bass is an easy fix and IEM are not that hard to drive for a smartphone.

 

[WaxDoctor]

We are probably going into that 'audio taste' territory that you can't make sense of with numbers by now. And this is the moment where you try to explain how your own ears percieve sounds, which means little to anyone else So here I go. To my ears bass boosting with digital equalizers on computers and smartphones always introduces distortion to the bass more or less. I have tried LG music player, Neutron, Blackplayer, Hiby and Jriver on PC. The ONLY thing digital equalizers can do for me is lowering bass, that does not introduce distortion.

On the other hand if the device has good bass capabilities from the get go, without bass boost functions on the bass is strong but soft instead of distorted. The closest audio comparison I can make is that the bass response starts to be more like listening to good studio speakers when swithing to the Scarlett or Xduoo X3 DAP.

And that's why I am looking for a hardware solution to more bass. My ears are never happy with the smartphone/computer digital solutions.

I think the usual bottom line with audio is, numbers guide you, listening should be the final call. Unless there is a larger incompatibility issue with the Ohm's and what not, larger than the one present with my FLC8n and Scarlett.

 

[RayDunzl]

To my ears bass boosting with digital equalizers on computers and smartphones always introduces distortion to the bass more or less.

Instead of boosting the bass, you might try lowering the higher frequencies, then adjust the output volume to taste.. Does your EQ provide a "shelf" setting?

Boost may be causing digital clipping.

Example shelf EQ. Higher frequencies reduced relative to bass.

 

[WaxDoctor]

Instead of boosting the bass, you might try lowering the higher frequencies, then adjust the output volume to taste.. Does your EQ provide a "shelf" setting?

Very interesting! I haven't tried parametric equalizers as I don't know what I am doing enough. But that's a very good guide, I'll give it a go in the Neutron app, it allows tons of tweaking.

But unfortunately it's not a solution to my problem. LG is the only smartphone producer I know of that focuses a lot on audio lately.
They LG music player app is customized to their specific phones DAC. But it only has 5-6 band equalizers, it can't fix anything. And that's the app I want to use. LG G5 is using a pretty unknown DAC called Qualcomm WSA8815.
They attained an amazing width and depth when using the LG music player in particular. It does not sound artifical like 'stereo width enhancer' features do. Those features mess up how songs are mastered to sound. Instead it has a lovely binural sound, and easily places instruments all around you and into infinity.

This width and depth is lost when swithing to other players, even the best one: Neutron. Overall detail and fidelity is better with Neutron. But that amazing width and depth, not.

I am just impressed with LGs audio engineering. I am guessing the app extends high frequencies with slow roll offs kicking in in just those frequencies.

 

[wiggum]

We are probably going into that 'audio taste' territory that you can't make sense of with numbers by now. And this is the moment where you try to explain how your own ears percieve sounds, which means little to anyone else So here I go. To my ears bass boosting with digital equalizers on computers and smartphones always introduces distortion to the bass more or less. I have tried LG music player, Neutron, Blackplayer, Hiby and Jriver on PC. The ONLY thing digital equalizers can do for me is lowering bass, that does not introduce distortion.

I don't want to sound rude, but your claims are bogus. There are was some study that showed distortion upto 10% in the bass region is tolerated. A equalizer unlikely to add that much distortion. I would expect it to be less than 1% which should be inaudible.

P.S. I might be wrong about the 1%. I remember reading on nwavguy's website that digital volume control and equalization is superior to analog equivalents since digital introduces very low distortion and noise.

I would take digital controls all the way.

To tie this into the previous discussion, one test showed that even trained listeners were not able to identify as much as 30% distortion peaks from material which had a dense spectra with a high amount of transients and synthesized sounds.

The above quote is from https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/audibility-of-distortion-at-bass

 

[wiggum]

Very interesting! I haven't tried parametric equalizers as I don't know what I am doing enough. But that's a very good guide, I'll give it a go in the Neutron app, it allows tons of tweaking.

But unfortunately it's not a solution to my problem. LG is the only smartphone producer I know of that focuses a lot on audio lately.
They LG music player app is customized to their specific phones DAC. But it only has 5-6 band equalizers, it can't fix anything. And that's the app I want to use. LG G5 is using a pretty unknown DAC called Qualcomm WSA8815.

Are you sure about this? The WSA8815 is for the smartphone speaker and not used for the headphones. Snapdragon comes with WCD9XXX series of chips for headphone use.

Try the TEAC music player for an excellent parametric equalizer that you modify easily. It allows you to easily control the shape of the equalization.

 

[WaxDoctor]

Like he said, It could be I am using the wrong word. Practically what I mean is, take any bass heavy song and start boosting the 60hz bar frequencies. The sound starts breaking up at some point, I call that distortion but maybe the right word is clipping. Digital equalizers all seem to have this issue. And to my ears this digital bass boosting is of low quality compared to default sound signatures coming from DAC/AMP. But like I said, haven't messed with parametric EQs yet, hopefully it changes this.

Instead of boosting the bass, you might try lowering the higher frequencies, then adjust the output volume to taste.. Does your EQ provide a "shelf" setting?

Boost may be causing digital clipping.

 

[WaxDoctor]

Are you sure about this? The WSA8815 is for the smartphone speaker and not used for the headphones. Snapdragon comes with WCD9XXX series of chips for headphone use.

No your right, thanks. Found this interesting thing after googling the DAC:
http://androidexpert35developer.altervista.org/audio-dac-booster-app/

 

[RayDunzl]

Digital equalizers all seem to have this issue.

It's operator error.

To increase the bass, you have to reduce the rest of the frequencies.

Here's a track that's not even "bass heavy", with the lows "boosted" by 9dB:

Same track section, attenuate the entire track by -6dB, then raise the bass by 9dB. No problems.

 

[flipflop]

take any bass heavy song and start boosting the 60hz bar frequencies. The sound starts breaking up at some point, I call that distortion but maybe the right word is clipping. Digital equalizers all seem to have this issue.

Clipping is a form of distortion.
Lower the preamp by the same amount as your biggest boost and it will go away. If the equalizer doesn't have a preamp/gain setting, follow Ray's advice and cut mids+treble instead of boosting the bass.

 

[bravomail]

did u know u can get LG G7 for half the price now? LG G7 has very good powerful DAC. Or get Samsung S7 (edge optionally) with Exynos processor and CS DAC. If u still want to add external DAC/Amp I so far only seen Topping NX4 having good measurements. But it costs up to half the cost of the phones I mentioned.

 

[wiggum]

did u know u can get LG G7 for half the price now? LG G7 has very good powerful DAC. Or get Samsung S7 (edge optionally) with Exynos processor and CS DAC. If u still want to add external DAC/Amp I so far only seen Topping NX4 having good measurements. But it costs up to half the cost of the phones I mentioned.

Which location? People from throughout the world visit this website, so location would be help.