Waffling on a tube amp

[mhardy6647]

New Chinese Integrated Line Amplifier

Finally got my first tube amp. :) I've been a tube tuner fan for years but I've got no local stations to enjoy in my new home location. It's brand-new from China where they stole our 120 year-old Western technology :confused: (sorry President Trump!) KT88s in push-pull configuration, 45 wpc...

audiokarma.org

Willsenton R8

Seems to be the flavour of the month on SNA, quite a few fanbois are pumping it up. Any chance you can get one in Amir and pop the hood and test it to see what the hype is about ? https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/322734-willsenton-r8-owners-thread/

www.audiosciencereview.com

Willsenton chatter.

OK, I looked up your loudspeakers. Not terribly sensitive (87.5 dB SPL per watt at 1 meter, if Crutchfield's to be believed), but nominally 8 ohms.
I'd be thinkin' about push-pull EL34 as a decent way to listen to them, if they have a fairly benign impedance load.
35 to 50 wpc should be enjoyable with them, depending upon your room, your preferred listening level, your taste in music -- and your expectations.

Here's what I'd do, were I you. Look for a restored ("resto-mod'ded" is probably even better) Dynaco ST-70. Excellent output transformers, especially for the $ I'd have suggested a modern "Dynakitparts" ST-70 kit, but they seem to be NLA. You could consider one of Bob Latino's latter-day ST-70 variants, but opinions on them, and him, seem to be mixed.

This could give you a much more cost effective way to decide if you like vacuum tube amplification with your loudspeakers -- assuming you don't know someone from whom you could borrow an amplifier.

Do you have any experience with vacuum tube amplification -- listening or owning? Why do you want (or think you want) to switch to vacuum tube amplification?
Depending on what you want to accomplish, you might get more bang for your buck with a decent quality vacuum tube preamplifier and whatever (ss) power amplifier you'd prefer. Much easier (cheaper!) to get the best of what vaccum tube circuitry can offer with line level circuits than with a power amplifier. If nothing else, no pesky output transformers required for a preamp! Good output transformers are expensive.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

It's a known fact any male over 45-50 is incapable of hearing much over 8khz, and it gets worse with each decade older.
Women who seem to be pretty much totally absent on here, have far better more acute hearing to a greater age than men.
Now I have to wonder why so few women are on ASR.

According to J.W (a prominent AES member) most speakers are incapable of reproducing even 16 bit resolution, while according to him, one of the few exceptions capable of having a good crack at reproducing square waves are Walker's Quad ESL.
Stuff from Janszen is a quantum leap better, as it was his father invented and patented the ESL.
ESL the ultimate difficult to drive load on ASR, I don't see much written about them....

Valve amps don't really generate 2nd harmonic distortion, at least not on a push pull amp, because this order cancels out in the output transformer.
As a general rule, push pull amps create odd order distortion, with a predominance of that, and significant IMD if using beam tetrodes. (The American way!).
This kind of sound both measurably (into a true inductive/capacitive load) and acoustically is quite objectionable.
Most commercial (valve) amps I tested were pretty dirty and unreliable, often crazy money, with a nasty tendency to blow up.
eg. The French Jadis Electronics huge monblocs paired with the mega expensive Tannoy westminster not only sounded awful, but had peculiar resonances just about everywhere.

In the valve amp game there about half a dozen people who seem to know/or knew what they are on about today.
Most of them spend a lot of time modifying and removing the original defects, so are busy people.
You get what you pay for from such people.

I had some great discussions here:-
I would count No1 probably as Jack Elliano, who is stopping making stuff at age 76.
+
The guy at Tube lab, as well as Dave Gillespie and a few others.
It was Jack put me on to the idea of pentodes producing much lower IMD products, and of course Gillespie who is a strong advocate of using optimised PSUs and the right amount of NFB.

These were always the weak point on those amps in their day, with a few exception.
Few remember now Avery Fisher, his concert hall and his double blind testing audiences with "live" musicians playing behind a screen v his amps/speakers reproducing the same music, or the French and their wonderful IRCAM?

How many modern silicon or otherwise amp makers today could sponsor concerts, musicians and have a concert hall named after them for their contribution to music?
That says it all n'est pas?

Just to note,- my own system uses a pair of highly modified 1960s Bogen's Westinghouse 8417 based amps which everyone and their dog shat on, saying they were industrial, ugly looking PA amps.
They are so well made they always ran 24/7/365, in warehouses/ice rinks and so forth and came to me dirt cheap (100-150USD a shot).
The transformers made in huge industrial quantities in NJ are more than half a century old and still very impressive craftsmenship.
Once modified from their humble industrial PA beginnings, (as Dave Gillespie-tronola) also discovered they are a low distortion superb 100W+ per channel, sounding terrific, while no suprise, the prices have shot thru the roof.

I stand corrected, it is mostly 3rd harmonic distortion in the amplifier that I listen to. Still, I love the sound of this tube amp. I also own solid state amps, including class D stuff, but the tube amp is my favorite. The human ear and brain love distortion when it's done well. I will say that I'm 44 years old and can still hear 16KHz in my left ear and 14KHz in my right ear (even after mixing close to 1,500 live shows as an engineer).
As for females having better hearing; I completely agree. The women that I've worked with have much better attention to detail and can hear things that men don't seem to notice.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Linn

Don't make tubes amps but Luxman is a good choice if you have to own one.

 

[mhardy6647]

Don't make tubes amps but Luxman is a good choice if you have to own one.

Did they stop making vacuum tube amplifiers?
Looks like they still, at least, offer a push-pull EL84 stereo integrated amplifier. Not really enough oompf for @Push's "use case", though.

SQ-N150 | VACUUM TUBE AMPLIFIERS | PRODUCTS | LUXMAN | Seeking higher sound quality

luxman.com

Looks like they still have a small but fairly complete line of vacuum tube hardware.

PRODUCTS | LUXMAN | Seeking higher sound quality

luxman.com

Some of Lux's vacuum tube amplifiers have been very good indeed. Pricey, though.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Did they stop making vacuum tube amplifiers?
Looks like they still, at least, offer a push-pull EL84 stereo integrated amplifier. Not really enough oompf for @Push's "use case", though.

SQ-N150 | VACUUM TUBE AMPLIFIERS | PRODUCTS | LUXMAN | Seeking higher sound quality

luxman.com

Looks like they still have a small but fairly complete line of vacuum tube hardware.

PRODUCTS | LUXMAN | Seeking higher sound quality

luxman.com

Some of Lux's vacuum tube amplifiers have been very good indeed. Pricey, though.

You missed Linn who I said don't make tube amps. Yes I like Luxman stuff bugt sadly their tube products don't test well either.

Luxman SQ-N150 Review (Tube Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Luxman SQ-N150 hybrid integrated amplifier with phono stage. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,295. Can you say pretty? I knew you could! :) Love the elegant front panel with VU meter. Nice set of balance and tone controls are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mhardy6647]

ahh, I see the antecedent now.
whoops.

At least Lux hasn't started putting LEDs under their tubes, AFAIK.

 

[Mr. Widget]

ahh, I see the antecedent now.
whoops.

At least Lux hasn't started putting LEDs under their tubes, AFAIK.

In my opinion that is design desecration. The classic MC275 was just that, a classic. If you want to create the glow of the Vegas strip, do it elsewhere.

Back to the topic of waffles, if you go that route, make sure you choose an amp with the appropriate nonstick tube cage. You don't want the batter getting down into the case.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I find that for some time now you can also get quite good tube amplifiers from China. With Line Magnetics, for example, I have made very good experiences and I like the design which comes from the classic Western-Electric look.

But there are also usable 'no-names' like this example at AliExpress. It is a 300B Amp very well built with a industry standard circuit. I had started a thread on a German forum about it, a few other experts also bought it and everyone confirmed the good quality and sound.

But in the end I like my self-built amps best, where I can realize my own circuits and design.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I can't imagine a world in which I would want a 300B amp, but those are very cool!

 

[computer-audiophile]

I can't imagine a world in which I would want a 300B amp, but those are very cool!

If you don't have the right speakers for it, there's no point anyway.

 

[Waxx]

Tube amps colour the sound, someting most people here hate (so that's why the hate for it is there). But if you love it, you can use them. They are technical inferior to modern solid state designs, but they got a sound many including myself love.

If you want to dap into tubes Line Magnetic is a brand that have some cheap models that are good for the right kind of speakers. But tubes will always be expensive. The Line Magnetic LM-211IA is about 1400€ and actually quiet decent, especially for that price. If you can live with only 3 watt, they got a cheaper one, the Mini84IA for 800€

Prima Luna also used to be a good deal for starting with tubes but prices went up quiet a bit (because they are very popular). But if you can find second hand Prima Luna's in good shape, it's worth the bet if it's below 1K (with working tubes). If you live in the region of the Netherlands, they often do very cheap stock sales of old series. That is how i got mine very cheap (1/4th of the recommended new price) as NOS. You need to go to Nijmegen (NL) to pick them up, so only for local sales.

VTL, Conrad Johnson and a few others are also good, but very expensive. Too expensive for me. And on the chinese market, it's a gamble. Sometimes you got very good amps for next to nothing, but very often it's crap also.... The amp you mention is such a chinese amp, and altough on views it looks quiet decent, i can't tell it's good or would trust it to buy myself.

 

[fpitas]

Once you get your amp, if you're curious, you can send it to Amir for evaluation...if you dare

 

[fpitas]

ASR is, generally, probably the wrong crowd to be asking.

Yeah, we get too worked up about it.

 

[fpitas]

If you don't have the right speakers for it, there's no point anyway.

Yes; they almost have to be horn-based, to need so little power.

 

[computer-audiophile]

If you don't have the courage to leave well-trodden paths, you may not discover some beautiful blossoms.
I had the LM211IA. The amplifier is very well built and also sounds good. Apart from that I like most DHT SE.

 

[30 Ounce]

There is also a large thread on Steve Hoffman forum on the Willsenton amps;

Willsenton R8 and R800i (805) or (845) news and views

Hi guys, During lockdown I decided to drift away from solid state gear and bought my first tube amp about 18 months ago. It was the fabulous and...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

 

[valve_integrator]

"Tube amps colour the sound**, someting most people here hate (so that's why the hate for it is there). But if you love it, you can use them. They are technical inferior to modern solid state designs,"

Sorry but I will throw another stone in the mire, -this is all really nonsense.
Like all generalisations they are largely wrong.
The favourite ones on here appear to be "valves distort".

Well no they don't, these devices don't inherently distort or they would never have used them in oscilloscopes or distortion analysers.
Certainly the BBC wouldn't have used them for decades either, particularly to drive those Quad Electrostatics they used in their monitoring studios.
Quad ESL present a near short circuit to an amp at HF.

I suppose you can diss the BBC too, but radio broadcast is all about production of highest quality control standards 24/7/365, and at that they excelled.

Bad valve designs distort.
eg. You can even compare the distortion characteristics of the 12AU7 with ostensibly same characteristic as the famous 6SN7 or now the far cheaper 7N7/14N7
Anyone with some knowledge would tell you the *AU7 is a cheap non linear device who's real nice linear SN7 equivalent is the 6CG7/6FQ7, which as it happens were mostly used in old B & W 405 line TVs.

As you would notice, of course most of the "hi end" amp builders, out there (esp from PRC) are using the *AU7 non linear ones in places where they distort, and of using the *Ax7s in the wrong ways too.

let's say, sadly, -"Certain" valve amps colour sound, some more likeable, some not.
eg. Lots of class A valve and transistor amps actually sound pretty much identical, or when putting the valve signal through a Partridge transformer, (those ones the BBC used btw) would be hard pushed to find fault or tell a difference.

Some (like mine) have been specifically designed to be neutral and stand heavy overloading, vibration and who knows what, without that near vertical distortion curve as it comes close to 50% of max signal and without blowing up.

If this were really true**, how come until relatively recently most large radio transmitters used valves for TX, and how come lots of old expensive classic Neumann and Gefell mics also used and still do use valves.

Do not forget, part of the so called "superior" solid state designs are not immune to nasty EMPs (including lightning), and have quirks all of their own.
That might explain the ubiquitousness of transformers in good old Ruper Neve's consoles and the fantastic overload characteristics of certain non FET based mics..
..the mics you are often listening to on the recordings you play back btw...

 

[Godataloss]

Asking for tube amp advice on ASR is like asking your doctor for his favorite brand of cigarettes.

 

[fpitas]

Asking for tube amp advice on ASR is like asking your doctor for his favorite brand of cigarettes.

Lol! Conversely, we also have our share of tube True Believers. But there's plenty of room here for everybody.

 

[Godataloss]

Lol! Conversely, we also have our share of tube True Believers. But there's plenty of room here for everybody.

Unabashed tube amp owner and vinyl aficionado here. I use a Hypex mostly now because I was afraid the tube amps would kill the cat.