Waffling on a tube amp

[Push]

My current setup is a Rega Planar 3/yellow Exact cart, Rega Fono MM Mk3, Rega Brio, Monitor Audio Silver 300. I also use a cheapo WiiM Streamer for the rare times I stream (this is slated to be replaced with a Cambridge CXN V2 next year).

I've decided that my next step in building my home stereo outfit is going to be a tube amp. I had selected a Rogue Cronus Magnum III as a nice starting point, but I'm having trouble pulling the pin on a 5 grand Cdn unit when I'm just not sure if I'll enjoy it or not. I've listened to several tube amps over the last couple months, loved the sound, but none at home with my setup in my room.

I keep eyeing up a Willsenton R8, and I'm wondering if this unit would indeed give me a proper taste of tube amplification and allow me to decide whether I'm going further down that rabbit hole, or if I should be upgrading my turntable instead. I've tried to find direct comparisons online, but haven't had much luck. Anyone on here had a Willsenton and then switched to higher end unit like the Rogue or a Linn? Does the Willsenton really give good enough results to tell someone if they want tube amplification?

Thanks in advance for any opinions and advice.

Rod

 

[LTig]

Well, efforts to improve sound quality are best directed to where the most gain is reached, which is not the electronics. This leaves the speakers/room and the phono cartridge (needle).

 

[LTig]

So, before looking for the "warm" sound of a tube amp better add a sub to improve the lows and the mids (less IMD) which also sounds"warmer" IMV.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Like my friend above I agree, speakers, room, needle are the true upgrades. Amps should be transparent and able to drive your transducers. Any idea that a amp should have a particular sound is flawed.

 

[30 Ounce]

There is a huge thread on the Wilsenton R8 on the Audiokarma forum you might be interested in.

Willsenton's R8 KT88/EL34 Tube Amplifier

I recently watched some YouTube videos on the Willsenton R8 KT88/EL34 integrated tube amplifier and decided to purchase one. Amazon sells it for $1500 but you can buy it directly from China-hifi-audio for about $900 plus shipping (in my case, it was about $330 to Hawaii). Since Amazon was out...

audiokarma.org

 

[mhardy6647]

To address the thread title directly: yes, you can waffle on a tube amplifier.
The output tubes will work. It will take a few minutes per side.
If the power supply uses a vacuum tube rectifier, that will work nicely as well.
On some amplifiers, the power transformer may also get hot enough to waffle upon -- but using it to keep just-cooked waffles warm before serving is probably the best practice.

 

[DVDdoug]

If you want high fidelity there is no advantage to using 1950s technology. A good amplifier isn't supposed to have any sound of its own... Ideally, it's a "straight wire with gain". A tube amp can be just as good as a good solid state amp but it's more expensive to build and super-expensive if you want hundreds of Watts.

Some tube amps do have their own "character" or "vibe" (usually distortion) but in that case it's going to have different sound from another tube amp. If you are buying one for its particular sound qualities you should listen to it first to see if you really like it.

Beware of "audiophile terminology". You'll read lots of flowery words that have no scientific or engineering definition. The ONLY characteristics that define sound quality are distortion, frequency response, and noise. With most modern amps (and other audio electronics) distortion and frequency response are better than human hearing as long as the amp isn't over-driven into distortion. Sometimes noise is audible (hiss, hum, or whine in the background).

Some tube amps interact with speaker impedance giving a "bump" in frequency response at the speaker's resonance. If that bump is in the bass range some listeners may find it pleasing, especially if the speakers are weak in the bass or if room acoustics create a dip in the bass. But of course, there are better and more-controlled ways to alter frequency response.

As an extreme example guitar amps aren't supposed to be high fidelity and they all sound different. Tube guitar amps are popular because of they way they distort when over-driven. Most guitar players have their favorite guitar and their favorite amp.

if I should be upgrading my turntable instead.

You'll probably hear a difference with a different cartridge (maybe better or maybe worse) but the limiting factor is the records themselves. The surface noise limits the usable dynamic range or "resolution", and personally it annoys me... The main difference with a different cartridge will be frequency response (usually in the high end) but again it's more practical to use EQ (or regular-old treble cut or boost). Or if you are getting tracking distortion on some records a different cartridge may be better. Back when I used to play records, I never heard a difference from the turntble itself except I've heard rumble rumble from a cheap turntable with a plastic platter. I've also never heard wow or flutter from anything unless it was broken.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

While I agree with a lot of the comments about tube amps here and I also love good solid state stuff, I still love my tube amp and it's clear that the human ear loves distortion. So, for me, I still spend a lot of time listening through tubes. I use a VTA ST120 from tubes4hifi.com. I highly recommend them. I know that they measure with a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion but I really enjoy listening to music on them, especially when streaming high quality files through a Topping DS90E.

 

[mhardy6647]

I use one as well.
To paraphrase Yoda.

There is no waffle. Do or do not.

... and to quote Richard Feynman, in case the OP (@Push) is trying to use ASR to validate his own decision to buy such an amplifier:

 

[MaxBuck]

I don't know if this is the right thread, but can anyone here give me guidance on choosing a horse to replace my BMW?

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

I don't know if this is the right thread, but can anyone here give me guidance on choosing a horse to replace my BMW?

Ha! That's funny. You don't think there's any space for a tube amp? Do you think that newer technology always sounds better? I would rather have horse than a BMW to take me down a mountain side trail that is a few feet wide........

 

[sam_adams]

Mmm . . . waffles!

 

[JaMaSt]

On some amplifiers, the power transformer may also get hot enough to waffle upon -- but using it to keep just-cooked waffles warm before serving is probably the best practice.

You win the internet today.

 

[Chrispy]

FWIW from my teen years on had no interest in tube amps, just more a pain and fussing thing (which I suppose can be attractive to some) let alone accuracy. I do know one guy who particularly loves his, but it's not necessarily transferable to other gear otoh, nor is he very open to comparisons. Ya like what ya like sometimes, even if it isn't particularly logical.

 

[JaMaSt]

Mmm . . . waffles!

 

[Daverz]

My current setup is a Rega Planar 3/yellow Exact cart, Rega Fono MM Mk3, Rega Brio, Monitor Audio Silver 300. I also use a cheapo WiiM Streamer for the rare times I stream (this is slated to be replaced with a Cambridge CXN V2 next year).

I've decided that my next step in building my home stereo outfit is going to be a tube amp. I had selected a Rogue Cronus Magnum III

I've had the Rogue M-180 monoblocks for many years and have gone back and forth dozens of times between these and my Bryston 3B-SST (type AB solid state). The only thing the Rogue does differently is that it's rolled off on top and has a slight and broad rise around 100 Hz, enough to give it a warmer sound. This is due to the higher output impedance of the Rogue interacting with the impedance of the speakers. Using camilladsp, I can EQ in any kind of sound signature I might want, so the tube gear's fixed EQ is not necessary.

 

[valve_integrator]

I still love my tube amp and it's clear that the human ear loves distortion. So, for me, I still spend a lot of time listening through tubes. I know that they measure with a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion

It's a known fact any male over 45-50 is incapable of hearing much over 8khz, and it gets worse with each decade older.
Women who seem to be pretty much totally absent on here, have far better more acute hearing to a greater age than men.
Now I have to wonder why so few women are on ASR.

According to J.W (a prominent AES member) most speakers are incapable of reproducing even 16 bit resolution, while according to him, one of the few exceptions capable of having a good crack at reproducing square waves are Walker's Quad ESL.
Stuff from Janszen is a quantum leap better, as it was his father invented and patented the ESL.
ESL the ultimate difficult to drive load on ASR, I don't see much written about them....

Valve amps don't really generate 2nd harmonic distortion, at least not on a push pull amp, because this order cancels out in the output transformer.
As a general rule, push pull amps create odd order distortion, with a predominance of that, and significant IMD if using beam tetrodes. (The American way!).
This kind of sound both measurably (into a true inductive/capacitive load) and acoustically is quite objectionable.
Most commercial (valve) amps I tested were pretty dirty and unreliable, often crazy money, with a nasty tendency to blow up.
eg. The French Jadis Electronics huge monblocs paired with the mega expensive Tannoy westminster not only sounded awful, but had peculiar resonances just about everywhere.

In the valve amp game there about half a dozen people who seem to know/or knew what they are on about today.
Most of them spend a lot of time modifying and removing the original defects, so are busy people.
You get what you pay for from such people.

I had some great discussions here:-
I would count No1 probably as Jack Elliano, who is stopping making stuff at age 76.
+
The guy at Tube lab, as well as Dave Gillespie and a few others.
It was Jack put me on to the idea of pentodes producing much lower IMD products, and of course Gillespie who is a strong advocate of using optimised PSUs and the right amount of NFB.

These were always the weak point on those amps in their day, with a few exception.
Few remember now Avery Fisher, his concert hall and his double blind testing audiences with "live" musicians playing behind a screen v his amps/speakers reproducing the same music, or the French and their wonderful IRCAM?

How many modern silicon or otherwise amp makers today could sponsor concerts, musicians and have a concert hall named after them for their contribution to music?
That says it all n'est pas?

Just to note,- my own system uses a pair of highly modified 1960s Bogen's Westinghouse 8417 based amps which everyone and their dog shat on, saying they were industrial, ugly looking PA amps.
They are so well made they always ran 24/7/365, in warehouses/ice rinks and so forth and came to me dirt cheap (100-150USD a shot).
The transformers made in huge industrial quantities in NJ are more than half a century old and still very impressive craftsmenship.
Once modified from their humble industrial PA beginnings, (as Dave Gillespie-tronola) also discovered they are a low distortion superb 100W+ per channel, sounding terrific, while no suprise, the prices have shot thru the roof.

 

[Killingbeans]

Now I have to wonder why so few women are on ASR.

My fiancé tells me it's because we are basically just a bunch of men mansplaining everything and anything to each other. A woman's perfect idea of hell

 

[Push]

... and to quote Richard Feynman, in case the OP (@Push) is trying to use ASR to validate his own decision to buy such an amplifier:

Actually, not concerned with validation. I have decided to experiment with a tube amp, but I'm not sure if its where I'll be going long term, and was hoping to find someone who'd had a Willsenton and then went for a higher end amp later, just to compare. Not much point in dropping 2Gs on an amp that isn't going to give me a proper taste of tube amplification, I'll just go straight to the Rogue (or a Linn).

 

[mhardy6647]

I read pretty good things about the Willsenton(s). Take a look at audiokarma (i.e., do a search there, or via google).
The Rogues get overwhelmingly good but kind of lukewarm (no pun intended) reviews. I've never noticed a cadre of, shall we say, rabid Rogue fans anywhere on the web.
I have no ears-on experience with eiher brand. Not my cuppa vacuum tube chai.

Listen before buyning, buy used from a reputable source, or buy new from someone who has a return policy that permits evaluation without too much expense if you don't like it.

ASR is, generally, probably the wrong crowd to be asking.