VTV Hypex NC1200 Tear Down and Recommendation

[mrmojo2022]

It may not be "fundamentally more efficient" than the nc500s, but it also doesn't put out TWICE the heat along with twice the power. Also, the front of the case which is where the SMPS is has never even gotten to 100F. It was the back where the nc1200 modules are that initially "over" heated.

If one module dissipates 20 watts in heat at a certain operating condition then two modules dissipate 40 watts of heat. the electrical load on the smps is doubled. the final temperature of the case depends upon its thermal resistance measured in deg temp rise per watt.

Your revised claims don't tally with the facts. your initial statements do.

 

[C. Cook]

Look, I get you are invested in your new amp and don't want your "recomendation" contradicted, but the data and evidence speaks for itself.

I have seen plenty of threads here showing VTVs lack of technical competence understanding of electrical safety and poor quality. On the other hand @boXem | audio products appear well designed and built. no we do not have any association, just a shared view based on technical data and analysis. you really shouldn't cast aspersions on @boXem | audio when this is clearly a subject you don't have the knowledge to comment upon.

Why do you keep trying to create diversions by talking about other manufacturers "doing it better?" the thread is entirely about this specific VTV product.

Why don't you do a bit of research so you can understand the data Hypex have provided on thermal management and heatsinking. this would be far better than blindly arguing and defending the VTV design. BTW you will get better temp measurements if you place a square of matt black electrical tape on the case. this will help match emissivity. The ir temp gun won't measure through the holes, but it will be hotter, by probably 10 to 15 deg C, inside.

You and boxem - the fainting couch is that way ----->

1. I don't give a sh*t whether someone wants to "contradict" my recommendation, but I do care to put up accurate information even if that entails correcting something that I said in the OP regarding case temperature.

2. Please point me to the "aspersions" I cast on boXem...he said they had data, I asked for it, waited a day, he posted no data, then you made another reference to this alleged data, so I asked again and said it's a bit suspect that if they had such extensive and conclusive data, they wouldn't go ahead and just post it. Heck, if not for me then for the benefit of THEIR customers maybe? Come on this isn't rocket science. I'm sure it would be a GREAT selling point if boXem publishes their heat data and does a side-by-side with the temperature data they claim to have taken from the Ghent cases.

3. Taking the time to do a long-ish heat measurement trial isn't "blindly" doing anything. I even posted pictures (one of which you misinterpreted and cast aspersions on me for) and have offered to post a video now. What I *am* interested in doing is an objective follow-up on my initial review and OP and that's what I'll do ... when I have time. Regarding the electrical tape, sure no problem, I had already thought about using masking tape for that kind of reading. That said, the 'skin test' has improved dramatically since day (or week) one. Recall I said that it burned my hand to touch it before. Now it doesn't get anywhere close to that. The hottest I can manage to make the case bottom (which again is where the bottom plate of the nc1200s are directly screwed like every other OEM Hypex seller) get is ~114F to ~115F. That's after sitting idle for an hour, starting with low volume music for 30 minutes, about, and then playing loud continuous program material for more than 1.5 hours.

Again, I can't stress this enough - So far only one other OEM reseller, boXem, has claimed that they've done detailed heat comparisons between Ghent and their own design. Literally every single OEM seller that has pictures on their websites show no additional heat sinking than what VTV and DIY projects use for Hypex amps. Why aren't you complaining about Nord, Apollon, or any of the others? Do note that I've kept this very specific to heat and left out all the other potentially questionable build quality issues. VTV isn't doing anything different than scores of other people and companies where heat sinking is concerned and Ghent is actively marketing his case for the dual nc1200 stereo amp application. And you see no problem with Ghent doing this, instead reserving your (ample) ire for VTV? That makes no sense to me.

 

[C. Cook]

If one module dissipates 20 watts in heat at a certain operating condition then two modules dissipate 40 watts of heat. the electrical load on the smps is doubled. the final temperature of the case depends upon its thermal resistance measured in deg temp rise per watt.

Your revised claims don't tally with the facts. your initial statements do.

Wrong. What you more than implied was that nc1200 modules put out double the heat of the nc500s at all volume points.

 

[mrmojo2022]

Slagging VTV is a bit of a sport at ASR. That's not to say the VTV is high-end on construction quality but by-and-large the stuff is sound.

I've owned VTV's NC252MP stereo and presently own their Purifi 1ET400A stereo with VTV buffers and have no problems whatever. Warren Coleman has given me great, personalized service on account of a problem that was entirely my own making, (having to do with swapping out Hypex buffers for the VTV).

Everything looks fine to me: see my pic attached. Shown with VTV buffers.

and other people's experience (all detailed in threads on ASR), including my own, is quite the contrary.

 

[C. Cook]

I was ready to give some data, but in front of such a behavior, well...

Sure, deprive your own customers of conclusive side-by-side heat dissipation measurements because you feel offended by my "behavior"... Doesn't sound like a winning sales differentiator strategy to me, but I guess I'm not the one here selling amps.

 

[mrmojo2022]

Wrong. What you more than implied was that nc1200 modules put out double the heat of the nc500s at all volume points.

I never said any such thing. I said that two nc1200 modules would dissipate twice the power of one nc500. you need to understand the difference between power dissipation and heat. that's your misunderstanding.

 

[C. Cook]

and other people's experience (all detailed in threads on ASR), including my own, is quite the contrary.

I've seen your thread, your hijacking of this thread and maybe one other. How many more are there?

 

[C. Cook]

I never said any such thing. I said that two nc1200 modules would dissipate twice the power of one nc500. you need to understand the difference between power dissipation and heat. that's your misunderstanding.

LOL, besides generating heat (and of course flowing through the speaker wires, xover and drivers creating mechanical energy), power is dissipated how?

 

[mrmojo2022]

You and boxem - the fainting couch is that way ----->

1. I don't give a sh*t whether someone wants to "contradict" my recommendation, but I do care to put up accurate information even if that entails correcting something that I said in the OP regarding case temperature.

2. Please point me to the "aspersions" I cast on boXem...he said they had data, I asked for it, waited a day, he posted no data, so I asked again and said it's a bit suspect that if they had such extensive and conclusive data, they wouldn't go ahead and just post it. Heck, if not for me then for the benefit of THEIR customers maybe? Come on this isn't rocket science. I'm sure it would be a GREAT selling point if boXem publishes their heat data and does a side-by-side with the temperature data they claim to have taken from the Ghent cases.

3. Taking the time to do a long-ish heat measurement trial isn't "blindly" doing anything. I even posted pictures (one of which you misinterpreted and cast aspersions on me for) and have offered to post a video now. What I *am* interested in doing is an objective follow-up on my initial review and OP and that's what I'll do ... when I have time. Regarding the electrical tape, sure no problem, I had already thought about using masking tape for that kind of reading. That said, the 'skin test' has improved dramatically since day (or week) one. Recall I said that it burned my hand to touch it before. Now it doesn't get anywhere close to that. The hottest I can manage to make the case bottom (which again is where the bottom plate of the nc1200s are directly screwed like every other OEM Hypex seller) get is ~114F to ~115F. That's after sitting idle for an hour, starting with low volume music for 30 minutes, about, and then playing loud continuous program material for more than 1.5 hours.

Again, I can't stress this enough - So far only one other OEM reseller, boXem, has claimed that they've done detailed heat comparisons between Ghent and their own design. Literally every single OEM seller that has pictures on their websites show no additional heat sinking than what VTV and DIY projects use for Hypex amps. Why aren't you complaining about Nord, Apollon, or any of the others? Do note that I've kept this very specific to heat and left out all the other potentially questionable build quality issues. VTV isn't doing anything different than scores of other people and companies where heat sinking is concerned and Ghent is actively marketing his case for the dual nc1200 stereo amp application. And you see no problem with Ghent doing this, instead reserving your (ample) ire for VTV? That makes no sense to me.

As I said, your revisions don't tally with the facts. your initial statements do. Those statements are consistent with my own experience of the single channel unit which also ran wY to hot.

When you said
"So where is boXem's heat data? Where is the proof that anyone else is heatsinking better?
Sorry just me or is this a little suspicious given the previous engagement?"

so the amp burned your hand, yet you still recommend it and think the heatinking is adequate? really? Perhaps it's running cooler now because something failed due to the excess heat

You have no idea about the thermal efficiency of other companies designs and little understanding of the subject to make judgements. regardless, what other companies are doing is irrelevant to this thread about this VTV design.

 

[mrmojo2022]

I've seen your thread, your hijacking of this thread and maybe one other. How many more are there?

And now you throw rocks at me as well as @boXem | audio . I just commented on your own admission that your amp gets way too hot.

I'm done.

 

[boXem]

Sure, deprive your own customers of conclusive side-by-side heat dissipation measurements because you feel offended by my "behavior"... Doesn't sound like a winning sales differentiator strategy to me, but I guess I'm not the one here selling amps.

I don't sell NC1200 based amps .

 

[C. Cook]

You have no idea about the thermal efficiency of other companies designs and little understanding of the subject to make judgements. regardless, what other companies are doing is irrelevant to this thread about this VTV design.

Apparently I have as much of an idea as you do and as much or more understanding of the subject. You're speculating across the board by pretending to know what the exact heat dissipation characteristics of Ghent cases are for an application where no measurements - unless boXem has them - for heat sinking exist TMK.

What other companies are doing is of direct relevance if they're competing with VTV for business; and they are. I don't see why you don't get this, but it's probably bc you're blinded by your rage at VTV.

What's wrong with saying I'm a bit suspicious that a COMPETING mfg (boXem) claimed to have heat sinking measurements and calculations for the Ghent cases (and their own design - which also doesn't employ additional heat sinking that I can see) if they refuse to post them and then double down by feigning offense at me saying that?

 

[C. Cook]

Good, be done please!

And now you throw rocks at me as well as @boXem | audio . I just commented on your own admission that your amp gets way too hot.

I'm done.

My "admission" was accurate on that day and the characteristics have changed, as demonstrated in the pictures. If I post a video, it won't be for your benefit because you have made up your mind and are bending what I say, published data and other users' claims to align with your feelings. Best of luck to you.

 

[C. Cook]

I don't sell NC1200 based amps .

OK, but you chimed in on a thread about nc1200 amps and said you had a superior case to Ghent for heat sinking other Hypex products (nc500).

Combined with mr.mojo's use of the nc500 data to make his point about the nc1200s and your direct interaction with him and me, I think it's understandable that I'd want to see the data for whatever Hypex based amp you've built **compared to** whatever you've measured for Ghent that drove you to the decision to come up with your own design.

So I guess I should ask before continuing: It's my understanding that you said you'd done heat sinking calculations (and measurements?) with Ghent's case for the nc500 application (mono or stereo, I forget). Is that correct? I have no problem being wrong, I'm just trying to level set here.

Personally I'm less interested in your data/measurements for your own case but I think it would be very helpful for your future customers or future potential customers to publish it. I'm really only interested in definitive, measurement-based proof that Ghent's case is inadequate and if you've got it then I think it would be beneficial to everyone who's had the (dis)pleasure of participating in this conversation.

 

[mrmojo2022]

Apparently I have as much of an idea as you do and as much or more understanding of the subject. You're speculating across the board by pretending to know what the exact heat dissipation characteristics of Ghent cases are for an application where no measurements - unless boXem has them - for heat sinking exist TMK.

I do need to address this. it is not based on speculation. it is based on known data for the heat transfer of the material, it's size, surface area and shape. how do think things get designed?

If you disagree with the calculations please run through them and describe why they are wrong.

 

[mrmojo2022]

Good, be done please!

My "admission" was accurate on that day and the characteristics have changed, as demonstrated in the pictures. If I post a video, it won't be for your benefit because you have made up your mind and are bending what I say, published data and other users' claims to align with your feelings. Best of luck to you.

So 50 degrees in temperature was suddenly "lost" never to be seen again

 

[C. Cook]

I do need to address this. it is not based on speculation. it is based on known data for the heat transfer of the material, it's size, surface area and shape. how do think things get designed?

If you disagree with the calculations please run through them and describe why they are wrong.

What calculations? Are you saying you've done an analysis on the heat sinking characteristics of Ghent's case based on the type, shape, thickness and surface area of the aluminum he's using? If so, please provide them. I have no interest in playing a theoretical game when at least I've actually taken measurements and posted them. Keep in mind, at no point here have I defended Ghent's case for use with dual nc1200s - quite the contrary. I'm fully willing to accept that they're empirically inadequate if you (or boXem) have the data. Anyway, I thought you were done?

 

[C. Cook]

So 50 degrees in temperature was suddenly "lost" never to be seen again

For what seems like the 10th time now, yes, it was "lost" and so far yet to be seen again. You may recall I reacted thusly to that: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Indeed it's a mystery that you and I are getting nowhere nearer to solving here, which is why I asked way upthread if someone with experience designing and measuring (and heat sinking) PWM class d amps could please attempt to explain.

 

[westyjeff]

these are my March Audio P701's, they have been run continuously for months.

 

[mrmojo2022]

.

What's wrong with saying I'm a bit suspicious that a COMPETING mfg (boXem) claimed to have heat sinking measurements and calculations for the Ghent cases (and their own design - which also doesn't employ additional heat sinking that I can see) if they refuse to post them and then double down by feigning offense at me saying that?

Everything when you use it as an attack to because @boXem | audio is contradicting your views.