Volume Control with advanced Bass management

[meesbaker]

Hey guys, Im new in this forum and I have been studying threads and reviews in this amazing library for a few weeks now, trying to understand everything.

At this point it appears to me that DAC and amplifier, as long as they are somewhat state of art equipment and powerful enough to handle your speakers, do not influence the sound too much these days.

Instead everything seems to be about DSP, PEQ / room calibration - especially to manage bass.

Recommended is a setup with multiple subs and a good software such as Dirac Live. And here is where things get funky to me.

>>Even reading the exact setups people seem to use and instructions how they do it I do not understand how they make it work<<

My dilemma is how applying simple global volume control when dual or even quad subs can only be implemented with a seperate piece of hardware early in the chain around the DAC.

For example - lets say we want to use a minidsp Flex to apply 4 subwoofers with Dirac Live. Sounds logical so far. We start with a DAC like a wiim ultra - then thr sub out routes to the minidsp which then governs the 4 subs and dirsc for them whilre the main outs go to the amplifier.

The problem is with this seperation I can no longer use my amplifier for volume control because the Bass is completely seperate. I would have to use the volume control of the wiim ultra itself.

That idea collides with everyone saying that DAC/streamer devices always have to be in fixed mode because digital volume control at this stage degrades the signal quality.

But how am I supposed to use a dedicated pre like a topping L70 or my integrated amplifier like a rotel for volume control if they have no connection to my subwoofers anymore? I dont think any of those devices feature sub out with high and low pass options that would allow me to connect them to the minidsp that controls and calibrates the quad subwoofer setup.

So if I tune down my amp/pre the subs keep blasting as loud as before or I put the DAC into variable which is criticised.

 

[staticV3]

That idea collides with everyone saying that DAC/streamer devices always have to be in fixed mode because digital volume control at this stage degrades the signal quality.

It doesn't. The WiiM volume control is safe to use and won't degrade fidelity.

Ditto for any other digital volume control built into devices like the miniDSP Flex or DACs from Topping, SMSL etc.

 

[Sokel]

If you design your gain structure from scratch, including some failsafe for VC, your digital VC upstream will not degrade anything.

Only make sure there's no excess attenuation to it (hence the gain structure)

 

[meesbaker]

Wow you guys are fast!!

Okay that clears up my first concern. In that case I guess a wiim could also go straight to powerblocks then?

Wiim Ultra mains -> 2x Fosi V3
Wiim Ultra sub -> minidsp flex -> multiple subs

That easy? That setup brings me to the second thing I didnt fully understand yet - is it any problematic that Dirac is only playing with the subs? And would the global PEQ/room correction from wiim collide in any way with the dirac on the minidsp?

 

[Sokel]

Wow you guys are fast!!

Okay that clears up my first concern. In that case I guess a wiim could also go straight to powerblocks then?

Wiim Ultra mains -> 2x Fosi V3
Wiim Ultra sub -> minidsp flex -> multiple subs

That easy? That setup brings me to the second thing I didnt fully understand yet - is it any problematic that Dirac is only playing with the subs? And would the global PEQ/room correction from wiim collide in any way with the dirac on the minidsp?

Mains and subs will have to both come out of the miniDSP.
Also, think about including a fail safe right before power amps+subs (attenuators to the loudest you'll ever listen too, or any other scheme, etc)

 

[staticV3]

In that case I guess a wiim could also go straight to powerblocks then?

Correct.

Wiim Ultra sub -> minidsp flex -> multiple subs

The 2x4HD/DDRC-24 ought to suffice.

Keep in mind that no miniDSP supports Dirac Bass Control, so for multi sub optimization you'd be better off with a 2x4HD and MSO.

Edit:
Just to be clear, you can do WiiM global PEQ + crossover ->2x4HD MSO, but that's without Dirac.

If you want Dirac + MSO, then a Flex makes more sense so you'd do WiiM Pro (Ultra useless here)->Flex->Mains and subs.

 

[TheKoC]

Dirac should ideally have full control of sub and mains for the best results. So if you want Dirac DLBC you would either need a AV-Receiver/Processor with 4 Sub-Outs and Dirac build in, or Dirac stand-alone software on your PC/MAC, wth a USB-Dac / Digital Interface with at least 6 output channels. Volume control in this case would be on your PC.

 

[Keith_W]

Wow you guys are fast!!

They may be fast, but they all forgot to welcome you to ASR. So ... welcome to ASR!

And yes, it is that easy. Do your volume control on the MiniDSP or Wiim, and straight out to the amps/speakers/subs.

 

[Hear Here]

At this point it appears to me that DAC and amplifier, as long as they are somewhat state of art equipment and powerful enough to handle your speakers, do not influence the sound too much these days.

Instead everything seems to be about DSP, PEQ / room calibration - especially to manage bass.

Oh dear! How wrong you are!

Presumably you are talking about music reproduction - 2-channel stereo?

DSP is the last thing you should worry about and only resort to it if all else fails because you have a particularly difficult room (unlikely), or chosen your equipment unwisely - much more likely - please don't be offended but many systems are not chosen primarily to suit the room in which it will be used.

Modern DACs and amps are indeed very accurate so vary little from one to another, though amps need to be matched with your speakers once you've bought the speakers.

You haven't mentioned by far the most important components of any sysatem - the speakers. Do you have them, if so, what speakers?

Choose speaker TYPE to suit your room's characteristics and music tastes - that's your No 1 decision - as getting that right is potentially 90% of the purchase decision problem.

Whether the speaker type is conventional box, horn, electrostatic, omni, etc you then need to decide on make and model. Difficult task that requires research, listening, compiling a short list and home demo'ing - and money. Don't buy stand-mounts if you want good bass and don't later add subs because you've wrongly bought stand-mounts in the first place. Buy speakers capable of delivering the sound you want. Don't cut corners unless buying used with confidence that you can quickly re-sell if performance is under expectations!

OK, after the speaker purchase you need to set them up and again this is of great importance. Position in the room (distance from walls, etc) toe-in, maybe tilt, the feet they stand on, etc all contribute hugely to their sound - I'm assuming you have some electronics to do this testing. Once happy with your big purchase (speakers should in my view represent 70+% of your total investment if looking for hi-fi sound), find (by home auditioning if possible), a suitable electronics package. Best value by far is an all-in-one streamer / DAC / amplifier, unless you are wealthy enough to have vinyl in mind.

If you are convinced you've made a real mess of your speaker / amp purchase decisions and don't want to admit it by sticking with these poorly-chosen items, get an amp that includes a DSP - but only in that case. The right speakers with a well-chosen amp, well set up in a room where a degree of consideration has been given to carpets, soft furnishings, etc should sound wonderful without resorting to DSP.

Good luck, but don't believe everythinbg you read about DSP - requiring it is a sign that you have cocked up your purchase decisions or not set up your system well. Also, DSPs adversely affect the top end of the frequency range, even though they probably don't adjust these high freqiencies. Some of the top-end sparkle (a word I shouldn't use really) is lost when the signal has to endure a DSP filter. You'll notice this if you have speakers capable of delivering goosebump-producing music! DSP will subdue your goosebumps - don't believe otherwise!

 

[Ropeburn]

Modern DACs and amps are indeed very accurate so vary little from one to another, though amps need to be matched with your speakers once you've bought the speakers.

Why do you need this "matching"? Isn't it better to simply get a competent amp that drives any speaker, which exactly is the definition of "competent" in this context? Absolute endgame quality and power is cheaper than ever. NCX500 or something for around 1000 moneys for example.

Your point sounds an awful lot like the good old "synergy" concept. Maybe you can elaborate?

 

[meesbaker]

Interesting information thank you all a lot!!!

It raises another question, many have said that the minidsp should connect both subs and mains - but it has only 4 outputs so that would limit to 2 subs then?

And minidsp dirac doesnt have bass control? Thats funny I thought that was the entire point of it.

Oh yea the speakers are for sure the most important I agree!! I havent purchased anything Im in pure learning mode - cheers y'all

 

[meesbaker]

Dirac should ideally have full control of sub and mains for the best results. So if you want Dirac DLBC you would either need a AV-Receiver/Processor with 4 Sub-Outs and Dirac build in, or Dirac stand-alone software on your PC/MAC, wth a USB-Dac / Digital Interface with at least 6 output channels. Volume control in this case would be on your PC.

Ah I had overlooked that one. So getting something like a mac mini and a strong measuring USB DAC would be the stronger way then?
You have any recommendation? Seems rare to have that many outputs.

Im not big on AVRs , they have all bells and whistles but never sounded near as good as our stereos - thats why my dad eventually bought one with preouts eventually + I remember years of hdmi handshake problems. Avoiding avr would be a number one goal. Seems still today reviews here have poor resukts even for high dollar avrs.

 

[Hear Here]

Why do you need this "matching"? Isn't it better to simply get a competent amp that drives any speaker, which exactly is the definition of "competent" in this context? Absolute endgame quality and power is cheaper than ever. NCX500 or something for around 1000 moneys for example.

How great it would be if amps could be chosen solely on their measurements, or that all "competent" amps would sound the same! Sadly not so.

3 or 4 years ago, I made the decision to move away from my excellent SET amps for a number of reasons. I would only move to ss if I could find an amp that offered as exciting and enjoyable listen as the SETs or better.

My reading research and question-asking led me to seriously consider at a dozen contenders in the £3-8K price range. These were of A, AB and D classes and from 12 to 200 watts. I bought (new or used) several and borrowed others, then home demo'd each of these 12 amps. Each could be compared with the outgoing SET and with one or two of the other ss amps. I must say I was surprised at the difference in sound delivery - some were drearily dull (including probably the most "accurate" of the bunch), while other got the goosebumps rising. All were powering an easy load - my (at the time) 101 dB 8 ohm Avantgarde speakers.

In fact this quest for a good-match amp was started by my ill-advised decision to purchase unheard an amp that was raved about by a fellow AG speaker owner. It was the huge disappointment in its lack of "excitement factor" that prompted the serious multi-amp testing sessions. Some were from very well known and admired brands such as Mark Levinson, Accuphase, Sugden, NAD, Benchmark, Quad and others more obscure such as Bakoon, Valvet and Micromega.

You are welcome to take a stab at which of these amps I liked or didn't. No amp will drive every speaker similarly. Choosing an amp without listening to it in your own room with your own speakers is almost as ill-advised as choosing speakers without a decent home demo.

 

[meesbaker]

Dirac should ideally have full control of sub and mains for the best results. So if you want Dirac DLBC you would either need a AV-Receiver/Processor with 4 Sub-Outs and Dirac build in, or Dirac stand-alone software on your PC/MAC, wth a USB-Dac / Digital Interface with at least 6 output channels. Volume control in this case would be on your PC.

Sorry to quote this twice but it seems on macos you can easily combine dacs as aggregate device? So a minidsp with 4 outs + any transparent topping usb dac and I have 6 balanced outs - mac mini is the source and it all goes straight into subs/mains - endgame ?

 

[Keith_W]

Oh dear! How wrong you are!

What a bunch of codswallop!!! ALL systems in EVERY room which aspire towards accurate reproduction NEED DSP. Without it, you have no way of taming those peaks and dips which typically swing +/- 20dB below the Schroder frequency. Attempting to do so with bass traps is intrusive, expensive, and have inevitable side effects. It is far easier with DSP, and you can do it with far greater precision.

The real question is whether someone is willing to put in the time to learn how to take measurements, interpret them, and take even more time to learn how to use DSP. It is a really arcane subject, and I don't blame anyone who is not willing to go down this path. DSP is a hobby by itself, and it can be a really deep rabbit hole. Despite some companies trying to make DSP more accessible, it is still not something for beginners.

Also, DSPs adversely affect the top end of the frequency range, even though they probably don't adjust these high freqiencies. Some of the top-end sparkle (a word I shouldn't use really) is lost when the signal has to endure a DSP filter. You'll notice this if you have speakers capable of delivering goosebump-producing music! DSP will subdue your goosebumps - don't believe otherwise!

That is another bunch of codswallop. More advanced DSP software lets you do what you want, and you can choose to leave the high freqs alone if you want to. In fact, I suggest that most DSP users leave the high freqs alone, unless they have high confidence that they have taken proper measurements and they know what they are doing.

 

[TheKoC]

Sorry to quote this twice but it seems on macos you can easily combine dacs as aggregate device? So a minidsp with 4 outs + any transparent topping usb dac and I have 6 balanced outs - mac mini is the source and it all goes straight into subs/mains - endgame ?

I think it is generally not advised to combine two usb-devices since you can't sync the timing between the two, at least not easily. There is a whole thread about this here somewhere, but I wasn't able to finde it just now.

Consumer-level multichannel-Dacs are rather rare, the Topping DM7 and Octo DAC 8 Pro have both been discontinued. More common are professional audio interfaces, but those are more commonly designed for studio use, so often lack "consumer features" like remote control for example. They also almost allways use balanced outputs, which neither your amplifier nor subwoofers may have, then you need adapter-cables, and so on...

I personally use a Audient Evo 16 for stereo and 3 subs and am quite happy with it, but there is definitely a learning curve for the interface, plus the DAW-integration, routing, Dirac quirks... an AVR is the easier way, plus has the advantage of decoding formats like Atmos which you may want in the future. But yeah, they certainly also have their disadvantages.

 

[meesbaker]

Thanks to everyone for all the information and opinions this helps a lot

 

[TheKoC]

Forgot to mention the Minidsp Flex HT is of course also an 8-channel DAC option.

 

[meesbaker]

Forgot to mention the Minidsp Flex HT is of course also an 8-channel DAC option.

Ive read people said something that it is "only 16 bit" , idk if that matters or what part of the measurements that refers to.

 

[OldHvyMec]

Your point sounds an awful lot like the good old "synergy" concept. Maybe you can elaborate?

I think his point is what anyone should do, and only use DSP if they aren't willing to set up the room correctly from the start. DSP isn't a fix, all by any means.

After listening to several systems with corrections of all sorts, I've yet to hear a good one that has a higher "WOW" factor than good placement, room treatment, and well-selected components.

I still use simple tone controls, and there is not a single genre of music my system won't play with a minor adjustment.

I started with Mcintosh valve gear 50 years ago, and apart from class Ds for summer use and sub/bass management, nothing has or will change. I still tinker with Cary valve gear for mids/highs and use a LS preamp (SLP-05) from time to time, it limits what sounds the best, and by no small factor. I have to be extremely picky to use an LS preamp and which valves will do a decent job. I still have to use a sub/bass management system with analog PEQ.

I'm not sure it's a synergy concept, but it is a process that involves a lot more than any DSP can provide.

It's like putting 20-40K speakers in an untreated room and using DSP. Silliest thing I've ever seen personally, and have never heard a good setup yet using that concept.

I can use 1-3K speakers that are nowhere on any list of good speakers and get a whole lot more for my personal pleasure.

The room is the key and then speakers, not the other way around. I'd give more credence to where you're seated than to 90% of any flat measuring speaker.

I can't stand the way most of the monitors look, to tell the truth. Genelec is at the top of the list and most of the recommended speakers on this site. YUK!!! BUT I have a little room to play with, and I don't mix music for myself or other people.

The one person that I do know who mixes music still uses JBL and listens through Polk when finished. I don't know a soul who uses studio monitors to listen to music. BUT Magico and Focal are pretty popular with a lot of my friends. Me not so much. I'm into small planars/ribbon line-source and LS/hybrids coupled with valve gear.

Nothing checks all the boxes like mono-pole planars/ribbons above 2-300hz.

Di and bi-pole speakers are another purpose built speaker that works if your into surround or into immersion sound. I'm currently not, BUT I've a few speakers that are/were fun to tinker with. Infinity IRS Betas, BG di-poles, and several DIY Strathearns, Monsoon and GSR projects.

Synergy NO but careful selection YES.

With Regards