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Vinyl will always sound *different* than digital, right?

j_j

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My apologies sir, had no idea it was a grave insult to call Mix3-ing 2 channels into 5-7 upmixing! Nor did I see anything on site saying its not upmixing. Sorry, I'll reread the whole thing a few more times. I in fact watched the tutorial video, etc, but am still not clear on how to "add" channels to the rear, etc. The 2ch file I uploaded, "widened" the front 2 channels, then downloaded as "5 ch speakers", indeed grew by about 4x original size (48k sampling), so something definitely happened there. However, I'm at a complete loss as to how this "5.0 channel" WAV is to be played back in 5ch. Couldn't find anything in tutorial for this. Maybe some members here might try it themselves, see if they have better luck than myself. Thanks again, fascinating stuff you're doing there for live music (especially jazz and classical) lovers like myself.
"upmixing" is a swear word. It consists of trying to extract 5 independent variables from two. Simply put, algebra is still right, you can't get 5 independent variables from two.

You can change what you render to to a number of formats, you may want to check various menus. The setup was intended for people used to digital production tools, but I still find it somewhat impenetrable myself.
 

j_j

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Something else to consider about LP's.

 

JP

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That's awesome. And why not? Used to store programs on cassette.
 
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Galliardist

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I'll wait for the 135000 disk Windows 11 box set. It shouldn't take that much longer than the average lifetime of a modern laptop to load. o_O
 

j_j

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I'll wait for the 135000 disk Windows 11 box set. It shouldn't take that much longer than the average lifetime of a modern laptop to load. o_O
Sadly we haven't the "laughing out loud" emoji here.

Or if we do I don't know it.

But, sir, that is both true and very funny.
 

JP

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Galliardist

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I built PCs back in my youth. Hated loading Office Pro. 23 disks.


At least it loaded serially, and you could untick options to reduce the number of disks needed.
I remember loading AutoCAD 12 which you would think would be fine from only 9 floppies. "Remove disk x, insert disk y", repeat for hours... sometimes it would ask you to remove a floppy and reinsert the same one!
 

thewas

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I remember loading AutoCAD 12 which you would think would be fine from only 9 floppies. "Remove disk x, insert disk y", repeat for hours... sometimes it would ask you to remove a floppy and reinsert the same one!
I remember AutoCAD 13 needing around 30 :facepalm::D
 

Galliardist

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Sal1950

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Sal1950

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And, if LP isn't retro enough, how about this? (Note, it's from a pioneer in hearing research's home collection.)
How very kool. I always wanted one for my collection but I put it off too long, now the prices are way up there for something nice
 

atmasphere

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Yep, but they still enjoy jumping up and down to listen to rice krispie's. LOL
Rice Krispies?
Seriously, if you were having a problem with this, its very likely you had some kind of setup problem.

Some phono sections (lots of phono sections, actually) can have problems with high frequency overload margins. Why this is an issue has to do with the electrical resonance that occurs any time you put an inductor (the cartridge) in parallel with a capacitance (the tonearm cable).

A MM high output cartridge will typically have a resonance at the extreme upper end of the audio spectrum or barely ultrasonic. The energy available in that peak (about 20dB FWIW) can easily overload the input of the phono section, creating a tick or pop. Sounds like Rice Krispies.

The problem can be solved by either loading the cartridge correctly (thus killing the resonance) and/or using a phono section that can't be overloaded at the input in this fashion.

Pretty arcane stuff FWIW, but if the phono is set up properly, very few ticks and pops will happen- just the ones on the surface of the LP itself instead of from an electronics tick generator... I'm used to hearing entire album sides with no ticks or pops at all.

But this was a pretty common problem with the run of the mill phono sections used in most popular amps and receivers made thoughout the 1970s and 1980s. No doubt digital was a welcome relief! I've often wondered if digital would have been as attractive if the phono sections of the day had been properly engineered.
 

j_j

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Rice Krispies?
Seriously, if you were having a problem with this, its very likely you had some kind of setup problem.

I'm pretty sure that many of us here know how to set up a turntable, electronics, and the like, to work properly. Even those of us who would rather simply play the wave file from their computer and whose LP components are 30+ years old, I dare say, have the ability and the knowledge to avoid overloads at high frequencies, etc.

So, I think "very likely" is not a very good estimation.

I'd suspect more mistracking of worn media, dust, or built-in surface noise, which LPs testably have quite an issue with.

I will say capturing at 96kHz and using ultrasonics as a means of mitigating the LP crap does work pretty well, but most LP people are upset by the idea I'd dare to put my ANALOG through a DIGITAL system. Their loss.
 

atmasphere

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I'm pretty sure that many of us here know how to set up a turntable, electronics, and the like, to work properly. Even those of us who would rather simply play the wave file from their computer and whose LP components are 30+ years old, I dare say, have the ability and the knowledge to avoid overloads at high frequencies, etc.

So, I think "very likely" is not a very good estimation.

I'd suspect more mistracking of worn media, dust, or built-in surface noise, which LPs testably have quite an issue with.

I will say capturing at 96kHz and using ultrasonics as a means of mitigating the LP crap does work pretty well, but most LP people are upset by the idea I'd dare to put my ANALOG through a DIGITAL system. Their loss.
You might want to find out about your first assertion before making a statement like that without proof. Based on common comments I see here, without further evidence, I suspect your surmise about 'ability and the knowledge' is false, Occam's razor and all. Ticks and pops is a very common complaint! Phono sections that generate them are common too!

If you designed the phono section yourself, if you have the engineering moxy, you can do alright. But a good number of engineers throughout the 1970s and 80s failed.

It was because they saw a phono section as merely needing enough gain and having the proper equalization. Once I outlined the electrical resonance concern, the solutions seem obvious of course, hindsight and all... But what if you didn't think about that?? I can tell you as a manufacturer that this phenomena isn't well known even today.

I get the comment about worn media. IME, wear happens when an inferior pickup or poorly set up pickup is used. That suggests the possibility that many of the people complaining about worn media didn't have the equipment set up properly, lacked the ability and knowledge, etc.

FWIW, when an LP is mastered, the lacquer is for all intents and purposes dead silent, being quieter than the electronics that might be used to play it back (unless the mastering engineer did a poor job of setting up the stylus or has used it past 10 hours). The pressing plant makes a test pressing of the LP, which is sent to the producer, who signs off on it, after which the pressing can proceed. Ticks and pops are not acceptable. It is during pressing that the surface noise of the LP occurs, due to vibration in the pressing machines. But the finished product should be free of ticks and pops. I have LPs I've bought used that were pressed in the late 1950s and succeeding decades and they don't have any ticks and pops unless actually damaged.
 

Jim Shaw

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THERE ARE TONS OF REASONS WHY VINYL SOUNDS DIFFERENT THAN DIGITAL

Here's yet another experienced pro and audiophile's clear explanation of the major difference in what we tend to hear, and why:


 

Sal1950

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I'm used to hearing entire album sides with no ticks or pops at all.
How often, one in fifty?
And how long will that "side" remain pristine, half a dozen plays or so before airborne environmental
issues cause the "side" to become increasingly noisy
All just facts of life when using that antique tech.
I'm used to never hearing any ticks, pops, or surface noise at all, unless I'm playing one of my old needle drop recordings.
BTW, I don't listen to "sides", i listen to complete albums.

Seriously, if you were having a problem with this, its very likely you had some kind of setup problem.
Oh brother, that's a new one, blame it on the gear. :facepalm:

I have LPs I've bought used that were pressed in the late 1950s and succeeding decades and they don't have any ticks and pops unless actually damaged.
LOL, Look my friend, I'm 72 and had been spinning vinyl on quality gear for decades before I sent them to into history. You can try to blow this smoke up others rear ends but please save your fairytales for the little children. This line of BS is just too much.
 

atmasphere

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How often, one in fifty?
And how long will that "side" remain pristine, half a dozen plays or so before airborne environmental
issues cause the "side" to become increasingly noisy
All just facts of life when using that antique tech.
I'm used to never hearing any ticks, pops, or surface noise at all, unless I'm playing one of my old needle drop recordings.
BTW, I don't listen to "sides", i listen to complete albums.


Oh brother, that's a new one, blame it on the gear. :facepalm:


LOL, Look my friend, I'm 72 and had been spinning vinyl on quality gear for decades before I sent them to into history. You can try to blow this smoke up others rear ends but please save your fairytales for the little children. This line of BS is just too much.
How often: Less 1 in 10 LPs might have problems. I don't run into this problem with new LPs, only used ones.

I use a dustbrush each time I play an LP so 20 plays has no noise effect. I use a dust cover too.

Regarding the setup issue, just sayin': Its not a message people like to hear, I'll give you that! WRT 'setup', in the case of ticks and pops I am referring specifically to the phono preamp and cartridge loading if a MM cartridge is used.

I've been surprised to find out how many phono sections, some of which cost quite a lot(!), have this problem. Its been a bit of a let-down to find that mediocrity is common in high end audio. Its like people don't have an education or aren't trying.
Not blowing smoke and I'm not that far behind you. I've been manufacturing audio equipment for 50 years. Naturally you can expect that the phono section I designed pays attention to this HF overload issue... FWIW our phono section was the first made anywhere to run the cartridge as a balanced source. If you think this is BS, that's fine; we don't have to talk about it, but this stuff is really easy to demonstrate.

For starters- here's what happens when a cartridge isn't loaded properly; a calculator is provided to sort that out:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
 

Cote Dazur

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I have LPs I've bought used that were pressed in the late 1950s and succeeding decades and they don't have any ticks and pops unless actually damaged.
Same here, on my system, if the disk is not damaged (scratch) after a good clean on the nitty gritty, my vinyl listening session are almost always free of ticks and pops.
Rice Krispies?
Seriously, if you were having a problem with this, its very likely you had some kind of setup problem
The Rice Krispies comments we have here and there, are on the legend level of the digital being sterile. That are the two different side of the same coin.
 

Sal1950

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Uh hun.
 
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