Vinyl will always sound *different* than digital, right?

[NTK]

My attempt to give a little bit of context on low frequency spatial reproduction, I am go to quote Dr. David Griesinger from this paper.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf

 

[FrankW]

My attempt to give a little bit of context on low frequency spatial reproduction, I am go to quote Dr. David Griesinger from this paper.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf

Thanks. I read the entire link and must confess...it's a bit over my head. Will have to read a couple more times. However, it seems to me he is concurring with J_J? That a monophonic signal fed to multiple subs can indeed yield smooth bass (which he says is perceivably good, free of large peaks etc), but cannot yield "spatial sensation". Which kinda makes sense to me. Sorta. ;-)

 

[atmasphere]

My attempt to give a little bit of context on low frequency spatial reproduction, I am go to quote Dr. David Griesinger from this paper.

http://www.davidgriesinger.com/asa05.pdf

View attachment 271696

What- no-one is challenging the good Dr. on his subjective conclusion- that 'involving' part?

Turns out the brain has tipping points in this regard. Music is processed in the limbic centers of the brain, but if the brain detects that something is amiss, it will unconsciously transfer processing to the cerebral cortex. At this point its not a leap to understand how the 'involving' part might be lost.

I'd be interested to hear how this approach might work in a smaller (average) sized room.

 

[ferrellms]

What- no-one is challenging the good Dr. on his subjective conclusion- that 'involving' part?

Turns out the brain has tipping points in this regard. Music is processed in the limbic centers of the brain, but if the brain detects that something is amiss, it will unconsciously transfer processing to the cerebral cortex. At this point its not a leap to understand how the 'involving' part might be lost.

I'd be interested to hear how this approach might work in a smaller (average) sized room.

Music processing in the brain is a complex phenomenon that involves multiple neural networks and brain regions working together. The brain processes various aspects of music, such as rhythm, pitch, melody, harmony, and emotional content. Here are some key aspects of how music is processed in the brain:

1. Auditory processing: The primary auditory cortex, located in the temporal lobe, is the first region of the brain to process basic auditory information, such as pitch, volume, and timbre. This information is then sent to other regions of the brain for further processing.
2. Rhythm and timing: The processing of rhythm and timing involves several areas of the brain, including the cerebellum, basal ganglia, and supplementary motor area. These regions play crucial roles in motor control and coordination, which are essential for perceiving and responding to rhythmic patterns in music.
3. Pitch and melody: The processing of pitch and melody primarily takes place in the right auditory cortex, which is more sensitive to pitch changes and tonal patterns. The right hemisphere is generally more involved in processing melody and other aspects of music perception.
4. Harmony: The perception of harmony is thought to involve both the right and left auditory cortices. The left hemisphere appears to be more involved in processing the structural aspects of harmony, while the right hemisphere is more involved in processing the emotional content of harmonic progressions.
5. Emotional response: The limbic system, which includes structures like the amygdala and hippocampus, is involved in processing the emotional content of music. The brain's reward system, particularly the release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, plays a role in the pleasurable experiences associated with music.
6. Memory and learning: The hippocampus and other areas of the medial temporal lobe are involved in the formation and retrieval of musical memories. Additionally, the prefrontal cortex is implicated in working memory and executive functions, which can be engaged during tasks like sight-reading or improvisation.
7. Motor planning and execution: The premotor and motor cortices, along with the basal ganglia and cerebellum, are involved in planning and executing motor actions related to music, such as playing an instrument or dancing.

It's important to note that music processing in the brain is not strictly segregated. Instead, various aspects of music perception and production are interrelated and involve the interaction of multiple neural networks and brain regions.

 

[j_j]

Music processing in the brain is a complex phenomenon that involves multiple neural networks and brain regions working together. The brain processes various aspects of music, such as rhythm, pitch, melody, harmony, and emotional content. Here are some key aspects of how music is processed in the brain:

1. Auditory processing: The primary auditory cortex, located in the temporal lobe, is the first region of the brain to process basic auditory information, such as pitch, volume, and timbre. This information is then sent to other regions of the brain for further processing.
2. Rhythm and timing: The processing of rhythm and timing involves several areas of the brain, including the cerebellum, basal ganglia, and supplementary motor area. These regions play crucial roles in motor control and coordination, which are essential for perceiving and responding to rhythmic patterns in music.
3. Pitch and melody: The processing of pitch and melody primarily takes place in the right auditory cortex, which is more sensitive to pitch changes and tonal patterns. The right hemisphere is generally more involved in processing melody and other aspects of music perception.
4. Harmony: The perception of harmony is thought to involve both the right and left auditory cortices. The left hemisphere appears to be more involved in processing the structural aspects of harmony, while the right hemisphere is more involved in processing the emotional content of harmonic progressions.
5. Emotional response: The limbic system, which includes structures like the amygdala and hippocampus, is involved in processing the emotional content of music. The brain's reward system, particularly the release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, plays a role in the pleasurable experiences associated with music.
6. Memory and learning: The hippocampus and other areas of the medial temporal lobe are involved in the formation and retrieval of musical memories. Additionally, the prefrontal cortex is implicated in working memory and executive functions, which can be engaged during tasks like sight-reading or improvisation.
7. Motor planning and execution: The premotor and motor cortices, along with the basal ganglia and cerebellum, are involved in planning and executing motor actions related to music, such as playing an instrument or dancing.

It's important to note that music processing in the brain is not strictly segregated. Instead, various aspects of music perception and production are interrelated and involve the interaction of multiple neural networks and brain regions.

Even pure listening involves reactively calculated head movement. Just watch anyone in an acoustic concert listening as a piece moves from one part of the orchestra to another. Almost everyone (absolute omitted but I haven't a counterexample) moves their head in an acoustic space as the music changes, partially to optimize their listening position within that acoustic space, and yes, try moving your head back and forth, forward and back a bit, when listening. You'll be surprised, well, SOME will be surprised, perhaps.

 

[MattHooper]

Even pure listening involves reactively calculated head movement. Just watch anyone in an acoustic concert listening as a piece moves from one part of the orchestra to another. Almost everyone (absolute omitted but I haven't a counterexample) moves their head in an acoustic space as the music changes, partially to optimize their listening position within that acoustic space, and yes, try moving your head back and forth, forward and back a bit, when listening. You'll be surprised, well, SOME will be surprised, perhaps.

I wouldn't be surprised

In home audio I use listener position quite a bit to alter the perception of the sound to my taste or mood. I can get a different presentation depending on whether my head is upright (it clears the top of my sofa) or if my head is leaning back against the large back pillow. In fact, I have different small throw pillows that I can use to get slightly different sound - one of them behind my head tends to produce a certain tonality and slightly more focused imaging, another a bit more diffuse but thicker and more 3 dimensional, with a slight tonal change.

Whenever I'm listening to new speakers I'll always move forward and back in the listening seat to see how the sound reacts to such changes, before I make a judgement on the speaker's character.

 

[FrankW]

Even pure listening involves reactively calculated head movement. Just watch anyone in an acoustic concert listening as a piece moves from one part of the orchestra to another.

I've never watched myself during a symphony but I'm sure that's true. Probably less so at home listening to reproduced music though?
Anyway, will definitely have to reassess my subs crossovers based on what I've read here. Thanks.
The current offerings from Immersion seem to be files processing only, may have to give it a whirl.

 

[j_j]

I've never watched myself during a symphony but I'm sure that's true. Probably less so at home listening to reproduced music though?
Anyway, will definitely have to reassess my subs crossovers based on what I've read here. Thanks.
The current offerings from Immersion seem to be files processing only, may have to give it a whirl.

There's a variety of stuff, as well as headphone head tracking, 7.0.4 rendering (or any other reasonably sensible kind of layout), and a bunch of other stuff, but it's not something you could put on a web site.

 

[Galliardist]

Music processing in the brain is a complex phenomenon that involves multiple neural networks and brain regions working together. The brain processes various aspects of music, such as rhythm, pitch, melody, harmony, and emotional content. Here are some key aspects of how music is processed in the brain:

1. Auditory processing: The primary auditory cortex, located in the temporal lobe, is the first region of the brain to process basic auditory information, such as pitch, volume, and timbre. This information is then sent to other regions of the brain for further processing.
2. Rhythm and timing: The processing of rhythm and timing involves several areas of the brain, including the cerebellum, basal ganglia, and supplementary motor area. These regions play crucial roles in motor control and coordination, which are essential for perceiving and responding to rhythmic patterns in music.
3. Pitch and melody: The processing of pitch and melody primarily takes place in the right auditory cortex, which is more sensitive to pitch changes and tonal patterns. The right hemisphere is generally more involved in processing melody and other aspects of music perception.
4. Harmony: The perception of harmony is thought to involve both the right and left auditory cortices. The left hemisphere appears to be more involved in processing the structural aspects of harmony, while the right hemisphere is more involved in processing the emotional content of harmonic progressions.
5. Emotional response: The limbic system, which includes structures like the amygdala and hippocampus, is involved in processing the emotional content of music. The brain's reward system, particularly the release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, plays a role in the pleasurable experiences associated with music.
6. Memory and learning: The hippocampus and other areas of the medial temporal lobe are involved in the formation and retrieval of musical memories. Additionally, the prefrontal cortex is implicated in working memory and executive functions, which can be engaged during tasks like sight-reading or improvisation.
7. Motor planning and execution: The premotor and motor cortices, along with the basal ganglia and cerebellum, are involved in planning and executing motor actions related to music, such as playing an instrument or dancing.

It's important to note that music processing in the brain is not strictly segregated. Instead, various aspects of music perception and production are interrelated and involve the interaction of multiple neural networks and brain regions.

You've omitted that the speech centre will also be involved when listening to a song, and sometimes when a player plays with suitable legato to imitiate voice. Isn't there also the warning mechanism (was that a twig snapping?) involved in interpreting any sound?

Facetiously, I'd also add that I've never seen reference to which part of the brain makes decisions when judging a hifi system or component. I understand that concentrating on one aspect of the sound can change the way decision making works, and a guided demonstration can take advantage of this (the foot tapping test being one example).

 

[FrankW]

There's a variety of stuff, as well as headphone head tracking, 7.0.4 rendering (or any other reasonably sensible kind of layout), and a bunch of other stuff, but it's not something you could put on a web site.

I see it's for headphones, which I have, but rarely use. So you upload a 2ch track, then do your own "surround" so to speak, like upmixers? I see mention of Atmos, which I have on my AVR, but will it decode the processed file as such, or is it strictly for "stereo" headphone output for now?
No offense, but that website needs a bit of work IMHO. "Hardware" is mentioned, but under "Products", only thing I could find is the file upload/processing for headphones. Could just be me though...;-)

 

[j_j]

I see it's for headphones, which I have, but rarely use. So you upload a 2ch track, then do your own "surround" so to speak, like upmixers? I see mention of Atmos, which I have on my AVR, but will it decode the processed file as such, or is it strictly for "stereo" headphone output for now?
No offense, but that website needs a bit of work IMHO. "Hardware" is mentioned, but under "Products", only thing I could find is the file upload/processing for headphones. Could just be me though...;-)

I believe I already told you that you can do any number of speaker formats including 7.0.4 (Which, for certain speaker locations, is the same as ATMOS), that we also can do head tracking for headphones, and as the web site clearly says, this is not "upmixing" of a 2 channel signal, although of course you could place your 2-channel signal into an acoustic setting of your own liking, just like you could place, 1, 3, 4, or many channels in any location around the listener you wish, in the acoustic space of your choosing.

Perhaps in the future you would be more careful with your disparaging mischaracterizations?

 

[Sal1950]

In home audio I use listener position quite a bit to alter the perception of the sound to my taste or mood. I can get a different presentation depending on whether my head is upright (it clears the top of my sofa) or if my head is leaning back against the large back pillow. In fact, I have different small throw pillows that I can use to get slightly different sound - one of them behind my head tends to produce a certain tonality and slightly more focused imaging, another a bit more diffuse but thicker and more 3 dimensional, with a slight tonal change.

Matt, You're always stuck in the past.
You need to get yourself a recliner with a power headrest like mine
Just push a button and put the headrest in any position you want.
Tweak your vinyl orgasm to the inch.

 

[j_j]

Matt, You're always stuck in the past.
You need to get yourself a recliner with a power headrest like mine
Just push a button and put the headrest in any position you want.
Tweak your vinyl orgasm to the inch.
View attachment 272759

View attachment 272760

ANYthing but the comfy chair!

 

[MattHooper]

Matt, You're always stuck in the past.
You need to get yourself a recliner with a power headrest like mine
Just push a button and put the headrest in any position you want.
Tweak your vinyl orgasm to the inch.
View attachment 272759

View attachment 272760

I actually envy a nice recliner like that. If I had a different type of room I might have gone for recliners but for our "home theater" a large sofa, custom built to my comfort levels, worked best. I deliberately had the height so that my shoulders were supported, but my head was cleared because I didn't want anything behind my head possibly ruining the sound. As I said, ultimately I experimented with some pillows. But that adjustable head rest looks great!

 

[FrankW]

I believe I already told you that you can do any number of speaker formats including 7.0.4 (Which, for certain speaker locations, is the same as ATMOS), that we also can do head tracking for headphones, and as the web site clearly says, this is not "upmixing" of a 2 channel signal, although of course you could place your 2-channel signal into an acoustic setting of your own liking, just like you could place, 1, 3, 4, or many channels in any location around the listener you wish, in the acoustic space of your choosing.

Perhaps in the future you would be more careful with your disparaging mischaracterizations?

My apologies sir, had no idea it was a grave insult to call Mix3-ing 2 channels into 5-7 upmixing! Nor did I see anything on site saying its not upmixing. Sorry, I'll reread the whole thing a few more times. I in fact watched the tutorial video, etc, but am still not clear on how to "add" channels to the rear, etc. The 2ch file I uploaded, "widened" the front 2 channels, then downloaded as "5 ch speakers", indeed grew by about 4x original size (48k sampling), so something definitely happened there. However, I'm at a complete loss as to how this "5.0 channel" WAV is to be played back in 5ch. Couldn't find anything in tutorial for this. Maybe some members here might try it themselves, see if they have better luck than myself. Thanks again, fascinating stuff you're doing there for live music (especially jazz and classical) lovers like myself.

 

[JP]

Took me a bit over three years to find my chair.

 

[j_j]

Took me a bit over three years to find my chair.

View attachment 273269

No headrest, no headrest reflections can be very good, indeed. One of the problems with slouching is getting the reflections from the chair back, at least in some chairs.

 

[Sal1950]

No headrest, no headrest reflections can be very good, indeed

Even more so with multich / Atmos rigs.

 

[j_j]

Even more so with multich / Atmos rigs.

Oh yeah, if you have side or back sound, it kind of wrecks the whole idea by having a headrest! Our demo chairs, oddly, have low backs.

 

[JP]

No headrest, no headrest reflections can be very good, indeed. One of the problems with slouching is getting the reflections from the chair back, at least in some chairs.

Yes, that was a big consideration in the selection process. The back of this one hits me right at my shoulder blades. Perfect.

I can’t stand having the chair back right behind me head - nothing sounds right.