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Vinyl will always sound *different* than digital, right?

j_j

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That is fascinating. Does it imply that part of the high frequency is detected by the stylus under tracking weight microsopically compressing (presumably elastically) the vinyl different ammounts at different densities?

For some pressings in some playback systems. It's dependent on material (vinyl, bakelite, etc, when you go back to old materials), but for modern vinyl, generally. It's the pressure (which is not small when you compress that 1 gram into such a tiny contact area) that often (not always) reads the highest frequencies. (The issue depends on pressing speed, etc. LP is close to a black art in some ways.)

The laser turntable discovered this as well as the dust issue, and apparently there is some way to partially recover the varying properties of the vinyl. I do not know the details, it's proprietary, and probably the result of a lot of hard work. The laser, of course, does not put any appreciable pressure on the vinyl. That's the good part, it is for the most part nondestructive "readout". I do wonder if at some point very complex image processing may enable avoiding dust, etc, as well. (Some is done via spectrum probability, but that's far from perfect.) I wonder, also, if there is any commercial benefit to this, sadly. It wouldn't even nowadays be an easy task, and would use a LOT of floating point. (And when a signal processing guy says "a lot", that's a lot!)
 

FrankW

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Hardest place to apply DSP in my opinion, mostly due to the required frequency resolution.

But then again, our professional systems are 5.0.0 7.0.0 and 7.0.4 No subs. Full range mains. There's a flaw in the 90 Hz idea. The experiment that was run years ago was 100% right, yes, you can not localize under 90Hz. You do, however, have substantial spatial sensation below 90Hz. So if you have one sub, it's going to sound "narrow" and "shallow" thanks to the physics of the situation vs. a good hall. Yep. Gotta use only below 40Hz to get that to work out.
I don't think too many people are running a single sub below 90Hz for smooth bass these days, it's usually at least 3, sometimes more. Does this matter for the "narrow" and "shallow" effect you are referring to? Thanks!!
I think I also read on AVS where Dirac is now also releasing a room correction for all full ranged speakers 5.0.0 as you are saying above?
 

j_j

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I don't think too many people are running a single sub below 90Hz for smooth bass these days, it's usually at least 3, sometimes more. Does this matter for the "narrow" and "shallow" effect you are referring to? Thanks!!
I think I also read on AVS where Dirac is now also releasing a room correction for all full ranged speakers 5.0.0 as you are saying above?

Can't speak to Dirac, no idea.

Multiple subs is good, however, multiple subs also require data that's properly captured and produced, in particular, no "mono bass" should ever apply, unless it's for LP's that may require it. We've all been trained to mono bass by LP production methods (It's pretty much necessary in LP's), and the difference is somewhat startling when it's not mono.
 

FrankW

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Multiple subs is good, however, multiple subs also require data that's properly captured and produced, in particular, no "mono bass" should ever apply, unless it's for LP's that may require it. We've all been trained to mono bass by LP production methods (It's pretty much necessary in LP's), and the difference is somewhat startling when it's not mono.
Thanks J_J! I thought that's what you meant, no mono, but the "one sub" had me confused. Wow, that's the complete opposite of everything I've read on audio forums for many years, where multi-subs in mono below 80 hz are considered the best approach, presumably 80hz being safely below your mentioned 90Hz localization threshold.
The "End game" speakers thread has some great info and actually linked me to your quoted post above in this thread. You say the experiment that was run was 100% right, is this other link in the End Game thread what you are referring to? I've never heard of "lateralisation" before. Seems to explain.
Sorry for all the questions, but you may have upended my thinking on bass in rooms.
 

j_j

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Thanks J_J! I thought that's what you meant, no mono, but the "one sub" had me confused. Wow, that's the complete opposite of everything I've read on audio forums for many years, where multi-subs in mono below 80 hz are considered the best approach, presumably 80hz being safely below your mentioned 90Hz localization threshold.
The "End game" speakers thread has some great info and actually linked me to your quoted post above in this thread. You say the experiment that was run was 100% right, is this other link in the End Game thread what you are referring to? I've never heard of "lateralisation" before. Seems to explain.
Sorry for all the questions, but you may have upended my thinking on bass in rooms.

There are two issues. The first is what do you do with more than one sub, and the second is how to do you produce for multiple subs to actually take advantage of them.

Both are currently a mess, and accuracy requires measuring a full 4-variable measurement, not just pressure.

When you have more than one sub, it is possible to improve/mitigate some (but not all) room modes with clever placement. (in general, you can avoid driving modes if you work hard on setup, but a room that stores energy will always provide problems). This is an approach for mono bass, basically. (Although it's also fine for properly designed multichannel bass).

But multiple subs can also create some effects that mono bass simply can not. The original experiment that tested localization appears to be as right as always, but it ignored spatial sensation, which is a different issue.

If you have the equipment, just generate a 50Hz tone, and put it at two different phases into your headphones (different phase left and right). You can't localize a source direction, still, but you will hear spatial effects.
 

FrankW

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But multiple subs can also create some effects that mono bass simply can not. The original experiment that tested localization appears to be as right as always, but it ignored spatial sensation, which is a different issue.

If you have the equipment, just generate a 50Hz tone, and put it at two different phases into your headphones (different phase left and right). You can't localize a source direction, still, but you will hear spatial effects.
Interesting. My previous link above was an experiment done at U of Sydney like you described, that seems to confirm this, using headphones. But how applicable is that to speakers in room? The old thread on here had links to room decay experiments as well. Does a room need low decay times for this "narrow" and "shallow" spatial effect to be heard with subs?
 

j_j

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Interesting. My previous link above was an experiment done at U of Sydney like you described, that seems to confirm this, using headphones. But how applicable is that to speakers in room? The old thread on here had links to room decay experiments as well. Does a room need low decay times for this "narrow" and "shallow" spatial effect to be heard with subs?

I've heard it in both very dry rooms and average rooms, so I think not. I don't have any specific analytic data on that, though.
 

FrankW

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I've heard it in both very dry rooms and average rooms, so I think not. I don't have any specific analytic data on that, though.
That's very good news for me, as I have little room for treatments in my room. Speaking of which, I saw your new company has a picture of its demo room in a Mixonline article. It's really difficult to tell, but there does not seem to be any room treatments obvious and several large speakers, presumably for the 5.0.0-7.0.0 you spoke of. What speakers are those?
12-8-21-Immersion-Networks-Debuts-Studio-A_2-768x514.jpeg
 

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@FrankW isn’t that a very ‘wet’ room?
 

krabapple

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Well, if you record a good vinyl playback digitally, that digital will sound like vinyl. But that's about it.


Agreeance from way back in September '22 :cool: :

Well, except a digital capture of the vinyl playback itself. In real time switching back and forth, and properly level matched, they sound should be seamless. If compared in not real time, they can sound different because the LP might have gained some more garbage on it since the digital transfer was done. Theoretically every individual playback of an LP will be slightly different -- tiny variation in platter speed, miniscule wear on the vinyl -- but I doubt that means 'sounds different' from play to play.



I don't think too many people are running a single sub below 90Hz for smooth bass these days, it's usually at least 3, sometimes more. Does this matter for the "narrow" and "shallow" effect you are referring to? Thanks!!
I think I also read on AVS where Dirac is now also releasing a room correction for all full ranged speakers 5.0.0 as you are saying above?
Well, hold on there . Do you mean 'smooth bass' a la Welti et al (where smooth means, achieving similar overall level or similar FR across multiple seats) or smooth bass FR at a single listening position (down to the -3 point of the sub)?
 

j_j

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That's very good news for me, as I have little room for treatments in my room. Speaking of which, I saw your new company has a picture of its demo room in a Mixonline article. It's really difficult to tell, but there does not seem to be any room treatments obvious and several large speakers, presumably for the 5.0.0-7.0.0 you spoke of. What speakers are those?
12-8-21-Immersion-Networks-Debuts-Studio-A_2-768x514.jpeg

The speakers are purpose built with digital zero-phase (no inversion) crossovers, each driver compensated, etc. The walls you see in the room are approximately 1' behind the surface, there's 4" of medium density mineral wool (in fireproof scrims) behind the surface, and then 8" of air space, and a triple-drywall outside that with isolation between the two outer layers, and mass sheets and more drywall on the outside.



The upper speakers have the same direct radiation as the larger lower speakers, again using digital crossovers to match things. Only difference is they have slightly less (but still quite sufficient) maximum output. Ceiling is like walls, only a bit deeper.
 

FrankW

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Well, hold on there . Do you mean 'smooth bass' a la Welti et al (where smooth means, achieving similar overall level or similar FR across multiple seats) or smooth bass FR at a single listening position (down to the -3 point of the sub)?
I mean the "standard" recommendation for "best"/smooth bass in rooms that I've read for 10+ years on various forums, including this one, is multi subs (>2), in mono, up to around 80hz. That was also recommended in the "$30k" speaker thread that linked me to this one. Which JJ is saying, will not produce "spatial sensation" above. He is recommending no mono till 40hz. That's news to me. You?
 

FrankW

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The speakers are purpose built with digital zero-phase (no inversion) crossovers, each driver compensated, etc. The walls you see in the room are approximately 1' behind the surface, there's 4" of medium density mineral wool (in fireproof scrims) behind the surface, and then 8" of air space, and a triple-drywall outside that with isolation between the two outer layers, and mass sheets and more drywall on the outside.

The upper speakers have the same direct radiation as the larger lower speakers, again using digital crossovers to match things. Only difference is they have slightly less (but still quite sufficient) maximum output. Ceiling is like walls, only a bit deeper.
Ah, custom speakers. Build yourself? Sounds like a room within a room. Very interesting indeed, though I couldn't afford to lose that much space in my room! Is that enough to reduce decay times in the bass? The purple lighting makes it difficult to see, but are the inner surfaces reflective, like drywall? Or is that a thin membrane to allow the 4" absorbers to work wideband? Appreciate you sharing with us JJ, I would guess one would have to go/see/hear in person to fully appreciate. Thanks.
 

atmasphere

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I mean the "standard" recommendation for "best"/smooth bass in rooms that I've read for 10+ years on various forums, including this one, is multi subs (>2), in mono, up to around 80hz. That was also recommended in the "$30k" speaker thread that linked me to this one. Which JJ is saying, will not produce "spatial sensation" above. He is recommending no mono till 40hz. That's news to me. You?
At 80Hz the wavelength is about 14 feet.

For the ear to hear a sound, the entire waveform must pass by it.

To know the frequency, several iterations of the waveform might be needed- at least two.

So in most rooms, the bass is entirely reverberant below 80 Hz by the time you can tell what bass note there is, meaning that the signal can be mono below this frequency without any ill effects. Higher frequencies (harmonics) in the main speakers define the location of bass instruments.

So if you run multiple subs to break up standing waves, as long as they do not have output above 80Hz (or so) they will not attract attention to themselves.
 

FrankW

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At 80Hz the wavelength is about 14 feet.
For the ear to hear a sound, the entire waveform must pass by it.
To know the frequency, several iterations of the waveform might be needed- at least two.
So in most rooms, the bass is entirely reverberant below 80 Hz by the time you can tell what bass note there is, meaning that the signal can be mono below this frequency without any ill effects. Higher frequencies (harmonics) in the main speakers define the location of bass instruments.
So if you run multiple subs to break up standing waves, as long as they do not have output above 80Hz (or so) they will not attract attention to themselves.

There's a flaw in the 90 Hz idea. The experiment that was run years ago was 100% right, yes, you can not localize under 90Hz. You do, however, have substantial spatial sensation below 90Hz. So if you have one sub, it's going to sound "narrow" and "shallow" thanks to the physics of the situation vs. a good hall. Yep. Gotta use only below 40Hz to get that to work out.
Atmasphere, you are reiterating what I've read for 10 years on online forums. Please see J_J's posts and this link of a test like he's suggested http://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/AAS2008/papers/p47.pdf
 

krabapple

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I mean the "standard" recommendation for "best"/smooth bass in rooms that I've read for 10+ years on various forums, including this one, is multi subs (>2), in mono, up to around 80hz.

well, yes, and that too is sometimes not clarified as referring to optimizing for single MLP versus reducing variation over multiple seats.


That was also recommended in the "$30k" speaker thread that linked me to this one. Which JJ is saying, will not produce "spatial sensation" above. He is recommending no mono till 40hz. That's news to me. You?
Yes, but if you noticed his caveats, importantly among them is that it also requires releases where low bass was recorded with multi sub stereo in mind, a situation he refers to as 'a mess'. Meanwhile:

When you have more than one sub, it is possible to improve/mitigate some (but not all) room modes with clever placement. (in general, you can avoid driving modes if you work hard on setup, but a room that stores energy will always provide problems). This is an approach for mono bass, basically. (Although it's also fine for properly designed multichannel bass)

For me this is a case of 'I don't know what I'm missing', because first, I certainly don't know if I own any recordings where the 'spatial effect' from stereo subs was anticipated in the recording, and second, I have always run my subs 'mono', lowpassed at 80 Hz for bass managed content and 120 Hz for LFE. And I have exploited placement tricks to try to improve/mitigate width modes.

IOW, stereo bass above 40 to experience the 'spatial effect' is not something I'm going to obsess over, though I may play investigate it some day ;>
 

atmasphere

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Atmasphere, you are reiterating what I've read for 10 years on online forums. Please see J_J's posts and this link of a test like he's suggested http://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/AAS2008/papers/p47.pdf
Interesting but that study uses headphones.

So its not surprising that we can hear side to side differences, where reverberation isn't a factor.

In most rooms, the fact that deep bass is 100% reverberant is the issue. With headphones there is little reverberant information.
 

FrankW

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Yes, but if you noticed his caveats, importantly among them is that it also requires releases where low bass was recorded with multi sub stereo in mind, a situation he refers to as 'a mess'.

IOW, stereo bass above 40 to experience the 'spatial effect' is not something I'm going to obsess over, though I may play investigate it some day ;>
I didn't see caveats in his overall postings (vs select quotes). Can't tell you what to obsess about, I was more concerned with me learning something from J_J here ;-).
I have always run my subs 'mono', lowpassed at 80 Hz for bass managed content

Me too! Now I see a Luminary here suggesting some rethinking of that. So I'm inquiring.
There's a flaw in the 90 Hz idea. The experiment that was run years ago was 100% right, yes, you can not localize under 90Hz. You do, however, have substantial spatial sensation below 90Hz. So if you have one sub, it's going to sound "narrow" and "shallow" thanks to the physics of the situation vs. a good hall. Yep. Gotta use only below 40Hz to get that to work out.
But multiple subs can also create some effects that mono bass simply can not. The original experiment that tested localization appears to be as right as always, but it ignored spatial sensation, which is a different issue.

He has clarified that "one" is "mono". So by my reading, he's not suggesting only MCH recorded bass applies, but any material with non-mono bass. Summing the bass to mono below 80-90Hz will lose "spatial sensation" to quote him. In a variety of rooms he's heard it in.
You could also direct questions to J_J himself and cut out the middle man if you need further clarifications ;-). As noted, this is pretty new to me.
 
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