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Vinyl will always sound *different* than digital, right?

Newman

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I'd be quite interested in how many people you've seen who've done that NOT in response to someone else stating they shouldn't, or NOT in response to someone generally disparaging people who like vinyl. Especially from the regulars here, rather than trolls who self immolate a few days later in a fit of pique.

I'm guessing you'd find for that situation, it's not quite as "over and over" as you seem to think.
My point is that they don’t need to do it in response, either. But they always do, right?
 

JP

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And others don’t need to disparage in the first place, either. But they always do, right?
 

antcollinet

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My point is that they don’t need to do it in response, either. But they always do, right?
Well sure - but equally people don't need to make the posts they are responding to, and yet they do - over and over.

Which brings us back to the question in post 332 by @levimax
 

daftcombo

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To make things clearer, we could try to make a typology of people who play vinyl:

1) Those who sometimes listen to records that are not available in digital.
2) Those who have a vinyl collection (inherited, formed in their youth, ...) and like to drop the needle now and then, for fun, have the occasion to manipulate the sleeves and lyrics sheets...
3) Those who find it easier to concentrate on the music and be patient when they play records on a turntable.
4) Those who think that vinyl sounds better than digital (an opinion perhaps based on the reiterated comparison of an old mastering on vinyl VS a compressed digital file, or because their speakers are too bright and the vinyl sound compensate for it, ...)
5) Those who just want to show off.
...

That kind of discussion has probably been had several times on this forum.
 

JP

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4) Those who think that vinyl sounds better than digital (an opinion perhaps based on the reiterated comparison of an old mastering on vinyl VS a compressed digital file, or because their speakers are too bright and the vinyl sound compensate for it, ...)

X) Those who find a preferable version to be on a vinyl record rather than digital.

This is distinct from #4.
 

Newman

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Well sure - but equally people don't need to make the posts they are responding to, and yet they do - over and over.

Which brings us back to the question in post 332 by @levimax
Good, it seems that both sides are imperfect and human, and the issue is not one-sided, and will continue because …repeat… both sides are imperfect and human.

Next.
 

Newman

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To make things clearer, we could try to make a typology of people who play vinyl:

1) Those who sometimes listen to records that are not available in digital.
2) Those who have a vinyl collection (inherited, formed in their youth, ...) and like to drop the needle now and then, for fun, have the occasion to manipulate the sleeves and lyrics sheets...
3) Those who find it easier to concentrate on the music and be patient when they play records on a turntable.
4) Those who think that vinyl sounds better than digital (an opinion perhaps based on the reiterated comparison of an old mastering on vinyl VS a compressed digital file, or because their speakers are too bright and the vinyl sound compensate for it, ...)
5) Those who just want to show off.
...

That kind of discussion has probably been had several times on this forum.
Oh you bet it has.
 

Balle Clorin

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1-10% distortion from vinyl does somethings with the sound…
968BEC85-3B56-4A5E-BCFD-6994FBE16A95.png
 

levimax

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Good, it seems that both sides are imperfect and human, and the issue is not one-sided, and will continue because …repeat… both sides are imperfect and human.

Next.
While another similar thread has a provocative title this one does not. I can't see any reason why anyone would feel a need to take "sides" on something like listening to vinyl or not. On a scientific forum like this there are a lot of interesting questions and topics pertaining to vinyl that can be discussed (including the most vexing but also the most fascinating one which is why does an obsolete 125 year old technology even continue to be relevant). The issue I have is that some members who have decided vinyl is not right for them (which is not an unreasonable decision) seem obsessed with convincing others to make the same decision as they made. After they have exhausted all their reasonable and scientific arguments about cost, noise, and performance, they resort to unscientific and unverifiable ad hominem arguments such as ignorance, arrogance, foolishness, vanity, stupidity, and deafness.
 

atmasphere

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X) Those who find a preferable version to be on a vinyl record rather than digital.

This is distinct from #4.
Exactly! Many LPs from the 60-80s can't be digitally mastered and sound as good as the original because the master tapes have degraded due to poor storage/treatment. In some cases they are missing altogether, having been sold out the back door... I know a few people that have such tapes. So if you really want to hear what that musical session really sounded like, sometimes the LP is your best bet.
 

j_j

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Well, if you record a good vinyl playback digitally, that digital will sound like vinyl. But that's about it.

Also:

Exactly! Many LPs from the 60-80s can't be digitally mastered and sound as good as the original because the master tapes have degraded due to poor storage/treatment. In some cases they are missing altogether, having been sold out the back door... I know a few people that have such tapes. So if you really want to hear what that musical session really sounded like, sometimes the LP is your best bet.

Or, in some cases, burnt to ashes in a major warehouse fire that destroyed a large number of master tapes. But what you say is true in general, many masters are in really bad shape due to extreme tape degredation. What some folks get off them is actually pretty miraculous.

Actually I should generalize on the first comment more. It will also capture a bad vinyl playback. :D
 
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antcollinet

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Well, if you record a good vinyl playback digitally, that digital will sound like vinyl. But that's about it.

Also:



Or, in some cases, burnt to ashes in a major warehouse fire that destroyed a large number of master tapes. But what you say is true in general, many masters are in really bad shape due to extreme tape degredation. What some folks get off them is actually pretty miraculous.

Actually I should generalize on the first comment more. It will also capture a bad vinyl playback. :D
I hesitate to make concrete statements when talking to you - so I'll phrase it as a question :):

Would you agree that if a good quality vinyl copy is recorded digitally using top quality turntable/electronics, and good quality ADC, that the result will be audibly indistinguishable from the vinyl?

If so, are you aware of any projects to digitally archive from vinyl where the tape masters are no longer available or usable?
 

j_j

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Would you agree that if a good quality vinyl copy is recorded digitally using top quality turntable/electronics, and good quality ADC, that the result will be audibly indistinguishable from the vinyl?
Unless somebody screwed up badly, yes.

If so, are you aware of any projects to digitally archive from vinyl where the tape masters are no longer available or usable?

No commercial ones, sadly.
 

j_j

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Shame. It seems such an obvious thing to be doing.
Shame. It seems such an obvious thing to be doing.
Unfortunately I can't use a "heart" emoji, so consider this strong agreement. There are many, many things for which no master exists, and even more for which the master may not even have signal left on it.
 

MattHooper

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Unless somebody screwed up badly, yes.



No commercial ones, sadly.

I listen to a lot of vinyl (as well as digital sources). When I wanted to incorporate a subwoofer in to my system I chose an analog crossover (JL Audio CR-1).
I'm sure I could have gone a route where I just digitized all my signals so everything could be room corrected via a chosen software.

But I couldn't. I just...couldn't.

It's not something defensible on technical grounds. I'm quite sure that my LPs sent through an appropriate AD converter would sound the same. It was more: I'd set up this whole analogue system beside my digital sources and...dammit...I wasn't about to digitize it! It's more of a conceptual "purity" thing than anything else I guess, "this is my analog system, that is my digital system."

As a fellow vinyl loving pal has said to me "Once you start digitizing vinyl, just admit, you've given up."

I can't give up. :D

(Though if anyone else could justify why this separate approach would be defensible beyond my whimsical desire...I'm all ears...)
 

j_j

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I listen to a lot of vinyl (as well as digital sources). When I wanted to incorporate a subwoofer in to my system I chose an analog crossover (JL Audio CR-1).
Well, subwoofer crossovers are an interesting problem in this regard. If you're running speaker/room EQ at, say, 96kHz, the filter design to split off the bass frequencies can be quite long and expensive (if FIR) or it WILL require double-precision float if done by an IIR.
 

MattHooper

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Well, subwoofer crossovers are an interesting problem in this regard. If you're running speaker/room EQ at, say, 96kHz, the filter design to split off the bass frequencies can be quite long and expensive (if FIR) or it WILL require double-precision float if done by an IIR.

I ended up trying DSP for just the subwoofer frequencies - first with the speakers run full range, then on the low pass signal to the subwoofer. I was willing to digitize the low pass signal as a compromise :)

(It didn't work out for me - sold the subs).
 

sonitus mirus

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So that should be the end result of this thread. We can absolutely digitally record the audio of a vinyl recording and capture everything that is audible. Vinyl will not always sound different than digital.
 
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