Vinyl recording help

[luisdent]

I've read a bunch but still don't feel I've got a good answer...

I have a few unreleased vinyl as well as a number of vinyl records, some of which i have heard and some of which i also know by way of research have the best masters of an album. I would like to digitize them to lossless audio files.

I have no real interest in having a turntable for playback itself. So I'm looking for as affordable as possible a solution to record vinyl to digital. I own a few very high quality audio interfaces, of which i believe my sound deisgn mix pre 10m would be more than sufficient for recording the signal preamp or line level. I'm not new to audio or recording but am a noob at vinyl.

I've seen many well reviewed units including some affordable audio technica models for a few hundred dollars. But I'm clueless as to how they differ from more "premium" turntables. I want to say this lightly, but I'm not really one for audiophile bs. My issue is a lack of technical familiarity with the components. But I'm not looking for the whole "surround your turntable in a dual forcefield with tractor beam to avoid vibrations" kind of thing.

More from an objective standpoint. Are there models with known flat frequency response outputs? How do i know if the needle/head/catridge/whatever are sufficient to not be negatively audibly affecting the audio? Which models have consistent speed and timing? That sort of stuff...

I know this is a wide category of characteristics perhaps, but every review i read is almost 100% subjective opinions on the sound. I want a measurably proficient option. Or at least one that is well known in the realm of recording engineers or what have you to have accurate audio output.

Any help is appreciated. I may be going down the road to hell, but it would be nice to have some of these vinyl for digital playback and preservation...

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I've read a bunch but still don't feel I've got a good answer...

I have a few unreleased vinyl as well as a number of vinyl records, some of which i have heard and some of which i also know by way of research have the best masters of an album. I would like to digitize them to lossless audio files.

I have no real interest in having a turntable for playback itself. So I'm looking for as affordable as possible a solution to record vinyl to digital. I own a few very high quality audio interfaces, of which i believe my sound deisgn mix pre 10m would be more than sufficient for recording the signal preamp or line level. I'm not new to audio or recording but am a noob at vinyl.

I've seen many well reviewed units including some affordable audio technica models for a few hundred dollars. But I'm clueless as to how they differ from more "premium" turntables. I want to say this lightly, but I'm not really one for audiophile bs. My issue is a lack of technical familiarity with the components. But I'm not looking for the whole "surround your turntable in a dual forcefield with tractor beam to avoid vibrations" kind of thing.

More from an objective standpoint. Are there models with known flat frequency response outputs? How do i know if the needle/head/catridge/whatever are sufficient to not be negatively audibly affecting the audio? Which models have consistent speed and timing? That sort of stuff...

I know this is a wide category of characteristics perhaps, but every review i read is almost 100% subjective opinions on the sound. I want a measurably proficient option. Or at least one that is well known in the realm of recording engineers or what have you to have accurate audio output.

Any help is appreciated. I may be going down the road to hell, but it would be nice to have some of these vinyl for digital playback and preservation...

Assuming you have a preamplifier with an accurate RIAA curve, the cartridge and its diamond dominate the frequency response. There's a fantastic thread about this full of cartridge measurements. The most popular seems to be the Audio Technica AT 540 ML.

Turntable-arm-cartridge-cantilever combinations are complex dynamic systems, which means their engineering analysis is surprisingly tough.

One way to consider this is that the cartridge must be held rigidly relative to the surface of the record at all audio frequencies, but must be free to move up, down, left and right at frequencies below 20Hz. The arm, cartridge and cantilever act as dynamic, sprung resonant circuit often peaking at about 10Hz, which must be filtered. The cartridge's motor forms an electrical resonant circuit, which for Moving Magnet cartridges is often within the audio frequency range

Meanwhile the groove should move evenly under the diamond with no variation in speed and no gross left, right, up or down movements.

Another way to consider this is as if the combination acts as a seismograph, trying to detect very fine audio frequency tremors and exclude noise in the room.

So "good" turntable, arm, cartridge combinations should provide reasonable isolation from the outside world. The arm horizontal bearing should have no looseness at audio frequencies. The arm should add only minimal resonances of its own and have a mass which works with the cartridge to ensure resonance is above warp frequencies and below audio frequencies. The turntable should have a reliably steady rotation (belt driven with a high mass platter, or direct drive with no cogging and good motor isolation).

 

[sergeauckland]

One thing I've found recording from vinyl is to keep the volume well down or better still, use headphones for monitoring. Depending on how well isolated the turntable is from the soundfield in the room, and/or structural vibrations, you get a cleaner recording if you don't have feedback from the room back to the record player.

You can check this fairly easily with the right test record and a loud CD. Play the 'silent' groove and record the turntable output whilst playing the CD fairly loudly. In all probability, you'll hear the CD music in the background of the 'silent' groove recording.

S.

 

[Apesbrain]

One thing I've found recording from vinyl is to keep the volume well down or better still, use headphones for monitoring.

Turn your speakers off and use headphones. Don't be keyboarding on the same surface as your turntable while recording. Set your peaks for -10 dB; plenty of room left for dynamic range of vinyl and you can amp it up in post. Don't sweat over channel balance; you can adjust it in post. You also can speed-correct in post, if needed.

Start with as clean a record as you can possibly get. Enjoy!

P.S. Whatever recording software you use, keep your record level set to 100%. Set your levels using your ADC.

 

[goat76]

I bought my first serious turntable this last summer. My initial idea was to buy something cheap, as I, just like you, mostly wanted to rip some vinyl records that I know are made from less dynamically limited masters. But when I started reading more about what is important for achieving a decent sound from vinyl records, I realized it would be a waste of money buying something too cheap, as it might not give me the sound quality I want for my digital copies. I ended up with a nice, direct-drive Technics turntable for the best possible speed control and a good-quality cartridge. I already had a great phono amp, so that part was already covered.

At first, I started ripping the vinyl records to be able to play them digitally, but then I realized I actually like playing them as they are, so I use my turntable as the playback device and don't bother much about ripping them.

I don't have any specific suggestions for what program to use for ripping the vinyl records, well, unless you happen to use a streamer by Linn, as I use a program especially made for those streamers.


Things you probably want to consider:

• A good turntable with a decent tonearm
• A great cartridge
• A quality phono amp
• Alignment tools for setting up the cartridge and the height of the tonearm
• A small scale for stylus pressure adjustments
• A vinyl brush, and also a small brush to keep the stylus free from dust

 

[DVDdoug]

I believe my sound deisgn mix pre 10m would be more than sufficient for recording the signal preamp or line level.

That will be fine but you'll have to use line-level. Phono preamps are different from mic preamps.

"Traditional" turntables don't come with a cartridge or preamp. (In the vinyl days every receiver had a phono preamp.)

If I was buying a turntable I'd seriously consider the AT-LP120. It doesn't seem too cheap and it's not crazy expensive. It comes ready-to-play with a cartridge and built-in preamp, plus USB for digitizing. (The preamp can be bypassed.) It's also direct-drive so there are no belts or drive wheels to wear out. (I've got a 40-year old direct-drive Technics... not the expensive one... and it still works fine when I want to occasionally digitize a record.)

Are there models with known flat frequency response outputs? How do i know if the needle/head/catridge/whatever are sufficient to not be negatively audibly affecting the audio?

Frequency response is a bit tricky. Cartridges do vary a bit, and the capacitance load has an effect on frequency response (wiring inside the turntable and to the preamp, plus the input capacitance of the preamp). And a lot records have rolled-off highs. (I only have experience with older records and reports on "modern" records is mixed.) So IMO - Don't obsess over frequency response and don't be afraid of using EQ to fix-up the digitized recording.

Which models have consistent speed and timing? That sort of stuff...

I've only seen speed problems with a worn belt or some other defect. The turntable itself has very little effect on the sound unless it's really cheap. The record itself is normally the weak link.

Audacity has a couple of tools ("effects") for reducing clicks and pops and other background noise. I also have Wave Corrector (Free and fully automatic) and Wave Repair ($30 USD and manual). Wave Repair can do an audibly perfect job on most (but not all) clicks and pops but since you have to manually find the defects it can "take forever" to clean-up an LP. On the other hand, it only "touches" the audio where you identify a defect. It also doesn't support high resolution audio (but you don't need high resolution for analog vinyl). I don't have as much experience with Wave Corrector.

 

[luisdent]

That will be fine but you'll have to use line-level. Phono preamps are different from mic preamps.

"Traditional" turntables don't come with a cartridge or preamp. (In the vinyl days every receiver had a phono preamp.)

If I was buying a turntable I'd seriously consider the AT-LP120. It doesn't seem too cheap and it's not crazy expensive. It comes ready-to-play with a cartridge and built-in preamp, plus USB for digitizing. (The preamp can be bypassed.) It's also direct-drive so there are no belts or drive wheels to wear out. (I've got a 40-year old direct-drive Technics... not the expensive one... and it still works fine when I want to occasionally digitize a record.)


Frequency response is a bit tricky. Cartridges do vary a bit, and the capacitance load has an effect on frequency response (wiring inside the turntable and to the preamp, plus the input capacitance of the preamp). And a lot records have rolled-off highs. (I only have experience with older records and reports on "modern" records is mixed.) So IMO - Don't obsess over frequency response and don't be afraid of using EQ to fix-up the digitized recording.


I've only seen speed problems with a worn belt or some other defect. The turntable itself has very little effect on the sound unless it's really cheap. The record itself is normally the weak link.

Audacity has a couple of tools ("effects") for reducing clicks and pops and other background noise. I also have Wave Corrector (Free and fully automatic) and Wave Repair ($30 USD and manual). Wave Repair can do an audibly perfect job on most (but not all) clicks and pops but since you have to manually find the defects it can "take forever" to clean-up an LP. On the other hand, it only "touches" the audio where you identify a defect. It also doesn't support high resolution audio (but you don't need high resolution for analog vinyl). I don't have as much experience with Wave Corrector.

Thanks for all the comments.so i guess the challenge is which turntables meet these criteria? The lp120 is definitely in my budget. I'm not saying i need 100% perfection. But more that I'd like to get past the general point of diminishing returns where I'm not unintentionally adding noise, frequency deviations, etc., because i bought a cheap turntable...

And sure i could potentially enjoy using it for playback as well, but i do most of my listening not in my living room where my nice speakers are go figure. Maybe once my son moves out.

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

One thing I've found recording from vinyl is to keep the volume well down or better still, use headphones for monitoring. Depending on how well isolated the turntable is from the soundfield in the room, and/or structural vibrations, you get a cleaner recording if you don't have feedback from the room back to the record player.

But, if you do this you will miss the full vinyl experience - the resonances and "fatness" that comes from the audio feedback loop. (c:

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

And a few quick points:

1. You'll need a phono preamp with the RIAA EQ curve; a mic preamp, no matter how wonderful, won't sound right unless you apply the RIAA EQ curve. I suppose it's possible to record with a mic pre and apply the EQ later, but this seems like more trouble than it's worth.
2. The biggest factors will be the condition of the vinyl and the quality of the original recording / mastering.
3. Speed variations, i.e. wow and flutter are usually negligible in comparison to the typical record which is often has the hole punched off-center and is not completely flat.
4. Likewise rumble. The only time I've ever heard rumble from a turntable is an idler-wheel drive has been left in gear and has developed a flat spot. Just not a facto with belt of direct drive.
5. Simply digitizing your records once and then listening to the digital copy is the way to go. You're on the right track here.
6. I'm quite happy with the results from the Audio Technica LP-120XUSB with it's built in preamp & USB interface. See this thread if you haven't already.
7. Vinyl Studio is worth the price if you value your time at more than $10/hour. Get the pro version which includes the ability to look up and copy track info when digitizing - saves having to manually enter track names. I was skeptical that it would work with my rather obscure collection, but so far has found everything.
8. I can't say I notice large audible differences between turntables. In theory, I think I should be able to hear more differences between cartridges than I do. YMMV. Seems that I lack some of the vivid imagination that vinyl-philes posess.

 

[tstar]

I've read a bunch but still don't feel I've got a good answer...

I have a few unreleased vinyl as well as a number of vinyl records, some of which i have heard and some of which i also know by way of research have the best masters of an album. I would like to digitize them to lossless audio files.

I have no real interest in having a turntable for playback itself. So I'm looking for as affordable as possible a solution to record vinyl to digital. I own a few very high quality audio interfaces, of which i believe my sound deisgn mix pre 10m would be more than sufficient for recording the signal preamp or line level. I'm not new to audio or recording but am a noob at vinyl.

I've seen many well reviewed units including some affordable audio technica models for a few hundred dollars. But I'm clueless as to how they differ from more "premium" turntables. I want to say this lightly, but I'm not really one for audiophile bs. My issue is a lack of technical familiarity with the components. But I'm not looking for the whole "surround your turntable in a dual forcefield with tractor beam to avoid vibrations" kind of thing.

More from an objective standpoint. Are there models with known flat frequency response outputs? How do i know if the needle/head/catridge/whatever are sufficient to not be negatively audibly affecting the audio? Which models have consistent speed and timing? That sort of stuff...

I know this is a wide category of characteristics perhaps, but every review i read is almost 100% subjective opinions on the sound. I want a measurably proficient option. Or at least one that is well known in the realm of recording engineers or what have you to have accurate audio output.

Any help is appreciated. I may be going down the road to hell, but it would be nice to have some of these vinyl for digital playback and preservation...

The most important component to make sure you get an accurate reproduction of the lp is the cartridge. Most direct drive turntables over 200.00 or so dollars will give adequate performance. You didn't say whether a manual t.t. (one in which you have to manually put the stylus on the record and remove it at the end) is okay, or if you want automation which will cue the tonearm at the start of the record and lift off at the end. Many budget turntables come with a preinstalled cartridge, but it's usually a lower end model. Buying a higher end model, like an Ortofon Blue or an ATvm530en will give you better sound at a reasonable price. Once you have made these investments, if you choose to continue buying and playing vinyl, they will last you for years.

 

[melomane13]

No one mentioned it, but it is necessary to thoroughly clean the record before digitization in order to reduce clicks and pops as much as possible.
There are machines available, but they are quite expensive and mainly useful for professional archivists.
There are also manual methods that work well if the number of records to process is limited.

 

[Ruediger]

I have no real interest in having a turntable for playback itself. So I'm looking for as affordable as possible a solution to record vinyl to digital. I own a few very high quality audio interfaces, of which i believe my sound deisgn mix pre 10m would be more than sufficient for recording the signal preamp or line level. I'm not new to audio or recording but am a noob at vinyl.

First thought - if you want to do a good quality level of vinyl recording, but don't need/want to keep the turntable after that, I'd go for something solid with a good resale crowd and value. Like a Technics SL-1500C with integrated phono pre, maybe as a set with Ortofon 2M blue or red (often offered here).

It's not cheap but if you don't want to keep it your costs will be rather small in the end. Way below the costs of a proper turntable and pickup to keep around.

If the turntable itself meets your taste or you find the pickup good enough, or even overqualified, is up to you of course. The whole turntable + pickup topic can be a giant rabbithole. It's just my impression, after decades with turntables, that there are also easy, good solutions for the intermediate need. What that translates to exactly is up to personal taste. I just wanted to give one example of such a possible "go to" package.

I am (still) digitizing a lot of old vinyl as I have walls full of it. Besides putting everything into good inner sleeves in the process (not expensive by the hundreds) I can recommend a simple vinyl washing tool. I guess stuff like that is available in most regions under different designs and names. The results are great in my opinion and the one bottle included in such a set gives around 50-150 clean and more or less static free vinyls, depending on the grade of dirt.

Disco-Antistat Schallplatten-Waschgerät

Das praktische Pflege-Set für die Grundreinigung Macht LPs dauerhaft antistatisch mit der alkoholfreien Disco-Antistat Mixture, einer Spezialflüssigkeit, die selbsttätig, rückstandslos und rillentief Staub, Schmutzteile sowie eingetrocknete Flüssigkeiten entfernt. Das Pflege-Set besteht aus...

www.knosti.de

Brushing vinyl on turntables to get a trouble free recording is a pain to me. Good with direct drives, not good at all with a belt drive. The static usually remains. But the results can be very good if the vinyl itself is already in good shape and just has some cover dust on. For more serious dirt not enough.