Vinyl Record Noise Floor - A Call For Measurements

[Audiofire]

Ignorance was bliss

 

[Greenman]

With vinyl, it depends what you mean by 'Dynamic Range'. The noise floor of an LP is very impulsive, for all the reasons you mention above. Consequently, if you just measure the noise floor with an average or especially a peak-reading meter and relate that to the peak levels on the LP, 30dB or so is what you get.

However, due to the impulsive nature of the noise, one hears well into the 'noise floor', so the practical signal to noise ratio is much closer to 60dB, higher on a really good pressing cut hot. This is especially so when the noise is weighted by one's hearing as a lot of it is low frequency.

I've done these measurements over and over again, and the the amount of LF rubbish on LPs is very high, but much less audible than the numbers would suggest. One consequence of this is the difficulty of doing frequency response measurements as they have to be done at low level due to the RIAA equalisation and consequently noise only 30dB down on peaks translates to only 10dB down at HF when to test LP is cut at -20dB which makes it hard to distinguish frequency response errors from noise.

I've not found noise to be an issue when listening to a decent LP, but put a meter on it, and it looks unusable.

S.

Good response that I absolutely agree with.

In general my vinyl has a lower noise floor than my room, so it’s as good as it needs to be. Analogue tape noise defines the noise floor for analogue recordings, for digital recordings it’s my rooms noise floor. Of course all this assumes vinyl in good condition, crackles and pops may be significantly higher, however out of 2000+ LPs I have maybe 10 that have significant surface noise (all 2nd hand purchases), though I have a few more with the odd crackle.
All this shows the fallacy of chasing DAC SINAD figures of 120db and more, this is simply of zero importance once a figure of around 80db is achieved.

 

[Herbert]

Frankly, I still have the vivid memory that I could clearly hear the vinyl noise in the pauses between tracks after copying a freshly bought record to a tape recorder, equipped with Dolby B. I guess, a middle class tape recorder from the early eighties had about 50dB SNR...?

 

[Thomas_A]

Noise can be quite low though...

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[watchnerd]

Noise can be quite low though...

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

I find this easiest to hear using headphones.

Using the HM-7 SUT, the electronic noise is low enough that I hear no hiss at normal listening level but in silent passages can hear groove jitter

 

[Thomas_A]

I find this easiest to hear using headphones.

Using the HM-7 SUT, the electronic noise is low enough that I hear no hiss at normal listening level but in silent passages can hear groove jitter

Yes it is always possible to hear some noise, some records can show quite low noise though. Did you listen to the Chopin?

 

[watchnerd]

Yes it is always possible to hear some noise, some records can show quite low noise though. Did you listen to the Chopin?

Yes, I did. It was a little tough because the moments of absolute silence were pretty short. I find solo a cappella the easiest.

That being said, it was audible, but pretty darn quiet. It sounded slightly higher pitch than what I'm used to. What cartridge was this?

 

[watchnerd]

Good response that I absolutely agree with.

In general my vinyl has a lower noise floor than my room, so it’s as good as it needs to be. Analogue tape noise defines the noise floor for analogue recordings, for digital recordings it’s my rooms noise floor. Of course all this assumes vinyl in good condition, crackles and pops may be significantly higher, however out of 2000+ LPs I have maybe 10 that have significant surface noise (all 2nd hand purchases), though I have a few more with the odd crackle.
All this shows the fallacy of chasing DAC SINAD figures of 120db and more, this is simply of zero importance once a figure of around 80db is achieved.

Agree re: room, but some of my listening is over headphones.

On digital recordings, over headphones, using a SUT, the groove noise becomes the noise floor.

 

[Thomas_A]

Yes, I did. It was a little tough because the moments of absolute silence were pretty short. I find solo a cappella the easiest.

That being said, it was audible, but pretty darn quiet. It sounded slightly higher pitch than what I'm used to. What cartridge was this?

The cartridge is Shure V15Vx/JICO SAS boron.

 

[watchnerd]

Fascinating, so turntables became overengineered with time like amplifiers (for competitive marketing).

It’s not just marketing. You want the vinyl reproduction chain to be better than the medium so the fidelity limit is vinyl itself

 

[sergeauckland]

It’s not just marketing. You want the vinyl reproduction chain to be better than the medium so the fidelity limit is vinyl itself

That's true, but turntable systems became that back in the 1960s, and reached some sort of technical peak in the mid 1980s with quartz servo-controlled direct-drive . Since then, it's been bling and stupid pricing.

S.

 

[watchnerd]

That's true, but turntable systems became that back in the 1960s, and reached some sort of technical peak in the mid 1980s with quartz servo-controlled direct-drive . Since then, it's been bling and stupid pricing.

S.

But the bling bling isn't chasing SNR numbers.

 

[MattHooper]

It would be interesting to see measurements done with some of the new optical cartridges from DS audio.

One of the features that it seems just about every single person reports is a significant reduction in background record noise.

My friend acquired and now uses a DS audio cartridge and he reports the same. (he often has more than one turntable and cartridge to compare back to back.)

When I’ve listened at his place with the DS audio cartridge, background record noise seems extremely quiet.

 

[watchnerd]

It would be interesting to see measurements done with some of the new optical cartridges from DS audio.

One of the features that it seems just about every single person reports is a significant reduction in background record noise.

My friend acquired and now uses a DS audio cartridge and he reports the same. (he often has more than one turntable and cartridge to compare back to back.)

When I’ve listened at his place with the DS audio cartridge, background record noise seems extremely quiet.

I think Peter Lederman said the same, due to less stylus jitter.

 

[Thomas_A]

It would be interesting to see measurements done with some of the new optical cartridges from DS audio.

One of the features that it seems just about every single person reports is a significant reduction in background record noise.

My friend acquired and now uses a DS audio cartridge and he reports the same. (he often has more than one turntable and cartridge to compare back to back.)

When I’ve listened at his place with the DS audio cartridge, background record noise seems extremely quiet.

Anyone with the cartridge could do a sweep and 1 kHz test signal to measure it. But due to price, I guess quite few owns it.

 

[Audiofire]

Anyone with the cartridge could do a sweep and 1 kHz test signal to measure it. But due to price, I guess quite few owns it.

What about a silent groove?

 

[Thomas_A]

I think Peter Lederman said the same, due to less stylus jitter.

I wonder what that means. I suspect it is LF noise? If it is compliance and damping, it should be the very similar, but if it relates to magnetic field "jitter" it might be different. System resonance and damping is one factor that affects.

 

[Thomas_A]

What about a silent groove?

Works as well, as long as it is related to some reference.

 

[watchnerd]

I wonder what that means. I suspect it is LF noise? If it is compliance and damping, it should be the very similar, but if it relates to magnetic field "jitter" it might be different. System resonance and damping is one factor that affects.

He means vibrational energy being dumped down the cantilever and into the stylus causing it to jiggle and lose and regain contact with the groove wall.

 

[watchnerd]

What about a silent groove?

The run out groove noise sounds different from the music grooves in all my records, maybe due to a different velocity