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Grave

Grave

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Slightly a blanket judgement.

Slightly subjective.

What exactly did you compare?

And what is better, better than what?

What software was used in this appraisal, did you compare apples to apples?

Is this a comparison simply between your/fathers turntable and a digital player, lumping all vinyl based on thee?

Since I've heard, countless times, my own turntable(s) (which measure tonally correct and given the software can demonstrate potential dynamic superiority) put my digital players to shame (*) ... it makes we wonder ..., in this case, has your or your fathers turntable been fairly represented, or perhaps if it indeed has, maybe its compromised, either inheritably, or based on setup?

So many questions, but since this board is above subjective answers ...

(*) and vise versa.

If subjective impressions are not allowed, then this forum is worthless. Measurements are more important to me, but to ignore subjective impressions completely is idiotic. Some of audio is subjective. Digital lossless sounds slightly clearer than vinyl to me. Probably because it is so noisy.
 

andreasmaaan

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@TBone I get the sense you've done a huge number of comparisons of the dynamic range of vinyl vs digital masters for a range of music. In your view, are there particular genres where you see more of a difference than others? My presumption has been that this phenomenon is most prevalent in rock and pop (which I rarely listen to), but I wonder if the same is true of e.g. classical or jazz (which I listen to a lot more of)?
 

TBone

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If subjective impressions are not allowed, then this forum is worthless.

well, WBF welcomes such members.

Measurements are more important to me, but to ignore subjective impressions completely is idiotic. Some of audio is subjective. Digital lossless sounds slightly clearer than vinyl to me.

Didn't ignore your subjective impressions, in fact, I did the opposite.

Subjective impressions, those based on actual hands-on experience within the field, is a completely different animal as compared to a limited singular subjective experience leading into blanket type judgements/statements. You started out by saying vinyl surprised you, then you claim you don't listen to it because ...

Probably because it is so noisy.

which, frankly, was foreseen ... since this is the same old tired typical complaint about vinyl, put forth as an absolute, as if ALL vinyl is just as noisy as your particular turntable/setup.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps your vinyl is noisy because of your LP condition, or a lack of cleaning intervention, or your turntable's compromised setup?
 
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andreasmaaan

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My dad is still listening to his vinyl non-stop whereas I gave up on listening to it because digital lossless sounds slightly better.

You started out by saying vinyl surprised you, then you claim you don't listen to it because ...
which, frankly, was foreseen ... since this is the same old tired typical complaint about vinyl, put forth as an absolute, as if ALL vinyl is just as noisy as your particular turntable/setup.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps your vinyl is noisy because of your LP condition, or a lack of cleaning intervention, or your turntable's compromised setup?

To be fair, I took the "it" in @Grave's post to refer to his dad's setup, not vinyl in general.
 

TBone

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@TBone I get the sense you've done a huge number of comparisons of the dynamic range of vinyl vs digital masters for a range of music. In your view, are there particular genres where you see more of a difference than others? My presumption has been that this phenomenon is most prevalent in rock and pop (which I rarely listen to), but I wonder if the same is true of e.g. classical or jazz (which I listen to a lot more of)?

Lots of R&R/POP ... but alas ... no comparing of classical and jazz; my knowledge, experience and musical inventory regarding those particular genres is very limited.
 

andreasmaaan

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Lots of R&R/POP ... but alas ... no comparing of classical and jazz; my knowledge, experience and musical inventory regarding those particular genres is very limited.

Thanks :)

My experience with vinyl is pretty limited - I have an old collection of jazz, classical and some rock records from the pre-digital era that I play every now and then, and a bunch of techno records that I use as a DJ.

IME the quality of the techno pressings varies (and this is subjective ofc) from almost as good as the digital version to complete rubbish, which is a real shame given that the craft of DJing derives from the turntable. But most of the time there is no comparison between the quality of the digital master and the vinyl, even though the vinyl costs many times more to purchase. Perhaps not surprising given that these tracks are primarily produced and mastered digitally and then mastered and pressed to vinyl on the cheap.
 

watchnerd

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My dad bought a Pro-Ject turntable and we are listening to his ancient vinyl. It sounds really good and the only problems I can hear are some minor crackles and the noise floor is audible when everything is quiet. I would never seriously consider using vinyl because of the inconvenience. What do you guys think of vinyl?

Pro-Ject turntable -> Topping A30 -> Sennheiser HD 650

I came of age as vinyl was dying. I never bought an LP in my youth. I bought cassettes, then CDs in late high school, college. Then SACDs (remember those?) after that. Then I eventually ripped all my digital media to a NAS and now all of my digital listening is via streaming, either from my own FLACs or Tidal via Roon.

I got into vinyl late, like around 2011-2012. My first turntable was a Project Debut Carbon with Ortofon 2M Red. It definitely had its limits, but it was enough to let me enjoy LPs.

My turntable is now a restored Michell Gyro SE Mk II, refurbished and brought up to present specs, and upgraded with better, modern materials, like PTFE washers, ceramic ball bearings in the spring towers, DC motor, etc.

5baa0285fd1e0cd3e13052db87f97c00.jpg


Tonearm is a Jelco SA-750D with VTA on the fly mod. Cartridges are a Nagaoka MP-500 (MI) and Audio Technica AT33 Mono (MC). My LP collection, ~400ish, is exclusively jazz from the post microgroove / pre-CD era, i.e. things that were originally issued on LP.

(I also had the much ballyhooed Denon DL-103 for a while until my house cleaner broke the stylus. Despite its cult status, it never sounded better than my MP-500).

I'm a bit of a heretic in that I'm using the DSP-based phono stage of the Devialet 400. Some will moan and cry about this being a digital conversion, but the RIAA implementation is much better than any analog stage phono I've ever heard, even at stupid high prices. John Atkinson in Stereophile also agreed that it is a very very good implementation.

In no way do I think my vinyl collection is objectively superior to my high resolution digital collection.

However, I like vinyl for the followings reasons:

1. Collecting LPs is much more fun than accumulating digital files

2. My best LPs can be musically engaging in a way that is different than digital. I suspect this is due to euphonic distortion and amplifications of resonances and room feedback that can make things seem more lively, dynamic, and 'in the room', as opposed to listening to a recording from another location.

3. It fulfills a need to tweak and fiddle with stuff. I feel less foolish dorking around with turntable optimization (which is actually a real issue) than getting involved in silly digital snake oil fetishes.

4. The Gyro SE is mesmerizing to watch in action:


5. Experimenting with different cartridges is a fun way to play with the system sound and very real (they're transducers), unlike fantasies around speaker cables and USB scrubbers

6. Investment -- okay, nothing to retire on, but my LP collection is now worth more than I paid for it, and I get the fun of upgrading to better, rarer versions of albums, or comparing different versions / pressings / issues of the same recording.

7. As mentioned above, for some reason enjoyment increases more with decreasing sobriety than with digital

Downsides:

1. The higher end, better sounding, more sophisticated stylus shapes are a complete PITA to get really dialed in. Aligning a .12 mil (Microline / Microridge) or .26-.28 mil (Shibata, Fine Line) stylus is time consuming, anxious, and frustrating.

2. There is no perfect alignment. Stephenson, Baerwald, Lofgren....they're all comprimises and you will have portions of an LP that are measurably higher distortion than other parts.

3. Arm / cart matching is critical. Until I got a super flexible arm like the Jelco, I had no idea of just how many variables one must take into consideration (compliance, effective mass, resonant frequency, damping, headshell weight, etc.).

4. Realizing that there is no point in pursuing ultimate perfection -- if you want that, listen to digital. And, yet, the urge to upgrade persists. A paradox.

5. Wasting hundreds of dollars in cartridge accidents / mishaps / maids / cats

6. Sometimes I'm just too damn lazy to go through the LP ritual

7. Liking vinyl sometimes means being associated with ignorant mouth breathers who spout nonsense about analog's "unlimited sample rates" or other anti-digital garbage

8. Buying bad LPs from bad, semi-bootleg labels that are just CDs made into LPs, instead of being remastered for LPs

9. Scratching or otherwise damaging LPs
 
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Wombat

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I came of age as vinyl was dying. I never bought an LP in my youth. I bought cassettes, then CDs in late high school, college. Then SACDs (remember those?) after that. Then I eventually ripped all my digital media to a NAS and now all of my digital listening is via streaming, either from my own FLACs or Tidal via Roon.

I got into vinyl late, like around 2011-2012. My first turntable was a Project Debut Carbon with Ortofon 2M Red. It definitely had its limits, but it was enough to let me enjoy LPs.

My turntable is now a restored Michell Gyro SE Mk II, refurbished and brought up to present specs, and upgraded with better, modern materials, like PTFE washers, ceramic ball bearings in the spring towers, DC motor, etc.

5baa0285fd1e0cd3e13052db87f97c00.jpg


Tonearm is a Jelco SA-750D with VTA on the fly mod. Cartridges are a Nagaoka MP-500 (MI) and Audio Technica AT33 Mono (MC). My LP collection, ~400ish, is exclusively jazz from the post microgroove / pre-CD era, i.e. things that were originally issued on LP.

(I also had the much ballyhooed Denon DL-103 for a while until my house cleaner broke the stylus. Despite its cult status, it never sounded better than my MP-500).

I'm a bit of a heretic in that I'm using the DSP-based phono stage of the Devialet 400. Some will moan and cry about this being a digital conversion, but the RIAA implementation is much better than any analog stage phono I've ever heard, even at stupid high prices. John Atkinson in Stereophile also agreed that it is a very very good implementation.

In no way do I think my vinyl collection is objectively superior to my high resolution digital collection.

However, I like vinyl for the followings reasons:

1. Collecting LPs is much more fun than accumulating digital files

2. My best LPs can be musically engaging in a way that is different than digital. I suspect this is due to euphonic distortion and amplifications of resonances and room feedback that can make things seem more lively, dynamic, and 'in the room', as opposed to listening to a recording from another location.

3. It fulfills a need to tweak and fiddle with stuff. I feel less foolish dorking around with turntable optimization (which is actually a real issue) than getting involved in silly digital snake oil fetishes.

4. The Gyro SE is mesmerizing to watch in action:


5. Experimenting with different cartridges is a fun way to play with the system sound and very real (they're transducers), unlike fantasies around speaker cables and USB scrubbers

6. Investment -- okay, nothing to retire on, but my LP collection is now worth more than I paid for it, and I get the fun of upgrading to better, rarer versions of albums, or comparing different versions / pressings / issues of the same recording.

7. As mentioned above, for some reason enjoyment increases more with decreasing sobriety than with digital

Downsides:

1. The higher end, better sounding, more sophisticated stylus shapes are a complete PITA to get really dialed in. Aligning a .12 mil (Microline / Microridge) to .26-.28 mil (Shibata, Fine Line) stylus is timely, and frustrating.

2. There is no perfect alignment. Stephenson, Baerwald, Lofgren....they're all comprimises and you will have portions of an LP that are measurably higher distortion than other parts.

3. Arm / cart matching is critical. Until I got a super flexible arm like the Jelco, I had no idea of just how many variables one must take into consideration (compliance, effective mass, resonant frequency, damping, headshell weight, etc.).

4. Realizing that there is no point in pursuing ultimate perfection -- if you want that, listen to digital. And, yet, the resist to upgrade persists. A paradox.

5. Wasting hundreds of dollars in cartridge accidents / mishaps / maids / cats

6. Sometimes I'm just too damn lazy to go through the LP ritual

7. Liking vinyl sometimes means being associated with ignorant mouth breathers who spout nonsense about analog's "unlimited sample rates" or other anti-digital garbage

8. Buying bad LPs from bad, semi-bootleg labels that are just CDs made into LPs, instead of being remastered for LPs

9. Scratching or otherwise damaging LPs

Does the cat sit on the mat(platter)? :rolleyes:
 

watchnerd

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It is difficult to get the very best out of vinyl; unlike digital, it's cost prohibitive, very much equipment and setup dependent to a very large degree. IMO, it does not help that the vast majority of vinyl-experts can't even get the basics right, never mind them dolling out that advice to casual users. Vinyl has obvious limitations, some more controllable than others ... but dynamic content should not be one of 'em ... and even a casual user on a casual deck should be able to hear that advantage - when properly presented.

I've heard so many expensive vinyl rigs that weren't set up optimally....so much wasted money.

TBH, due to laws of diminishing returns and the frequency of bad set ups, I'd say a mid-level tt/arm/cart, with appropriately matching components, truly properly and carefully set up, will do better than a mediocre set up of a much more expensive rig.

I don't happen to be a fan of the looks, but the new Technics 1200GR (~$1700), plus matched cartridge of choice in the $500-$1000 range, is probably the major inflection point for serious diminishing returns. Maybe an arm upgrade, too, if you want really want to gild the lilly or just be different. After that, it takes a lot more effort and money to do objectively better (different, yes, better, maybe not).
 

andreasmaaan

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I’m very far from an expert in vinyl, but for those who are: wouldn’t doing something like replacing a tonearm in many cases have a detrimental effect, as you are taking a system that was designed to work in unison and replacing parts with components that were not?
 

watchnerd

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I’m very far from an expert in vinyl, but for those who are: wouldn’t doing something like replacing a tonearm in many cases have a detrimental effect, as you are taking a system that was designed to work in unison and replacing parts with components that were not?

Well, as they say, it depends:

1. Some turntables, like my Michell Gyro, aren't sold with a specific tonearm at all. Instead, there are a number of different arm boards available as standard (in this case: SME, Rega, Jelco, Linn being the most common), but you can, in theory, get an armboard for any tonearm made. In the case of the Gyro, as a spring-balanced turntable, the arm boards are custom machined so that the weight of arm board + tonearm = 1 kg.

2. Many "integrated arms" are built around a specific cartridge, the combination giving a nicely price optimized TT + arm + cart combo. But this may limit upgradeability. For example, my previous Project Debut Carbon came with an Ortofon 2M Red and the fixed carbon tonearm is well optimized for this. But if you want to upgrade to a 2M Black, things may not work out so well, as the 2M Black has a much narrower stylus and sensitive to VTA/SRA....which isn't really easily adjustable on the Debut Carbon arm.

3. Some esoteric cartridge choices, such as an Ortofon SPU, are so heavy and need such high effective mass, that almost nobody ships a turntable that handles them "out of the box", thus requiring a different tonearm.

4. Many turntable manufacturers aren't tonearm makers. Many OEM arms are made by Jelco for the likes of Ortofon, Linn, etc. Jelco makes damn good arms (I own one), especially for the money. But the truly best-in-class tonearms, like the Triplanar, don't OEM to anybody.
 
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watchnerd

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Surface noise is probably the thing someone raised in the digital age will most fault about vinyl.

For me, I can "listen through" surface noise.

It's inner groove distortion that drives me nuts....which draws me to advanced stylus shapes...which are much harder to set up correctly than a spherical or elliptical...

*sigh*
 

andreasmaaan

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Well, as they say, it depends:

1. Some turntables, like my Michell Gyro, aren't sold with a specific tonearm at all. Instead, there are a number of different arm boards available as standard (in this case: SME, Rega, Jelco, Linn being the most common), but you can, in theory, get an armboard for any tonearm made. In the case of the Gyro, as a spring-balanced turntable, the arm boards are custom machined so that the weight of arm board + tonearm = 1 kg.

2. Many "integrated arms" are built around a specific cartridge, the combination giving a nicely price optimized TT + arm + cart combo. But this may limit upgradeability. For example, my previous Project Debut Carbon came with an Ortofon 2M Red and the fixed carbon tonearm is well optimized for this. But if you want to upgrade to a 2M Black, things may not work out so well, as the 2M Black has a much narrower stylus and sensitive to VTA/SRA....which isn't really easily adjustable on the Debut Carbon arm.

3. Some esoteric cartridge choices, such as an Ortofon SPU, are so heavy and need such high effective mass, that almost nobody ships a turntable that handles them "out of the box", thus requiring a different tonearm.

4. Many turntable manufacturers aren't tonearm makers. Many OEM arms are made by Jelco for the likes of Ortofon, Linn, etc. Jelco makes damn good arms (I own one), especially for the money. But the truly best-in-class tonearms, like the Triplanar, don't OEM to anybody.

Great answer, thanks. Does one have to rely on theory and manufacturer claims to determine what will work best, or are there publications or blogs etc. publishing measurements of various TT/tonearm/cartridge combos somewhere?
 

watchnerd

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Great answer, thanks. Does one have to rely on theory and manufacturer claims to determine what will work best, or are there publications or blogs etc. publishing measurements of various TT/tonearm/cartridge combos somewhere?

There are mathematical models you can use to determine the resonant frequency of system with an effective mass of a tonearm + headshell + cart with a cart compliance of x.

The problem is that getting accurate manufacturer data on cart compliance and tonearm effective mass is harder than you'd think, made more difficult by the fact that European, American, and Japanese cart makers use different methods to measure compliance.

You can also test at home using test records and / or oscilloscopes and share the results. Example:


I'm pretty anal retentive about putting numbers in a spreadsheet and calculating all the numbers for any cart before making a purchase, but it seems that most internet forum posts on cart/arm combos I see are mostly like the 'I tried this on my system and it was amaze balls / total crap, I'm in heaven / please help.'
 

andreasmaaan

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There are mathematical models you can use to determine the resonant frequency of system with an effective mass of a tonearm + headshell + cart with a cart compliance of x.

The problem is that getting accurate manufacturer data on cart compliance and tonearm effective mass is harder than you'd think, made more difficult by the fact that European, American, and Japanese cart makers use different methods to measure compliance.

You can also test at home using test records and / or oscilloscopes and share the results. Example:


I'm pretty anal retentive about putting numbers in a spreadsheet and calculating all the numbers for any cart before making a purchase, but it seems that most internet forum posts on cart/arm combos I see are mostly like the 'I tried this on my system and it was amaze balls / total crap, I'm in heaven / please help.'

Haha yes. It's only the latter type of post I'd seen in my forum experience, so it's nice to know that there is some information available that can be used to at least begin to introduce some degree of precision to the process.
 
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