JP
Major Contributor
Some try to achieve as flat as possible.
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Vinyl is not as bad as I expected.
- Thread starter abdo123
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Some try to achieve as flat as possible.
What I would suggest is take one of the numerous ones you mention and then check it out against the dr database. As this is an audioscience forum that should give you the emprical evidence whether that is true or not
Oh no!.... you are going to open the "DR Meter doesn't work on vinyl" can of worms
the point I am trying to make is that apart from a very few CDs which were created early on the loudness war pretty much cancelled some of the advantages which CD had. One of them being the massively increased dynamic range. Ps. as I mentioned in another post I do actually have a first issue (1985) version of brothers in arms. Which measures really well. But everything rock and pop in the last 20 years has been poor. So I was probably overstating with the word "never" and I should have used "usually" instead.Oh no!.... you are going to open the "DR Meter doesn't work on vinyl" can of worms
I understand and agree about the craziness of DR on CD's being lower than LP's in some cases... makes no technical sense. Which "original" Brother in Arms are you talking about? I have both an original RL mastered LP and the original CD .... both sound great and are hard to tell apart (of course the CD has a couple extra songs)
if you look in the dr database and sort by year you can see the original ones which came out just after the original LP. The remaster of this actually looks pretty good.
Bob from Florida
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Good LP's sound good as well as good CD's. I don't enjoy messing with CD jewel cases - especially some of the newer environmentally friendly types. Which us why my CD's are on a music server. On the other hand, I can look for a LP, pull it out of its sleeve, and play it on the table. The cover is large enough to enjoy reading and I have to get up to flip sides. It's a process to be sure, but enjoyable nonetheless.
Only if you ignore the snap krackle pop, surface noise, inner grove distortion, mono'd bass, wow & flutter, etc, etc, etc.
DR is only one (small) aspect of sound quality and we all wish to labels wouldn't do it, (on CD, it's necessary on vinyl which inherently has a very restricted DR). But even a reasonably compressed CD can and does still sound excellent while not having all of vinyls distortions and limitations.
This is a Science based site and being so requires you to be technically honest.
The honest truth is that 99.9% of all CD's sound better then their vinyl counterparts.
Vinyls popularity is based on the fact that boys like to play with their toys, nostalgia, they can look impressive to friends, etc.
Otherwise they don't belong in 2021 audio any more than a cassette or 8 track player, their time ran out around 1982.
YMMV
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As this is a science based site I think one of the most interesting psychoacoustic phenomenon is that an LP with SINAD of < 40dB along with all the other issues you mentioned can sound as good as a digital copy if the mastering is the same. If the mastering of the LP is better/preferred to the digital copy then it can indeed sound better. In my experience clean first pressings of older "classic rock/ pop" often sound better (preferred by me) or the same as later digital versions (especially remastered versions). Rather than your assertion that 99.9% CD's sound better than LP's I would say it is more like 20% of LP's sound better (Not the same thing as being technically better) , 40% sound the same, and 40% sound worse.Only if you ignore the snap krackle pop, surface noise, inner grove distortion, mono'd bass, wow & flutter, etc, etc, etc.
DR is only one (small) aspect of sound quality and we all wish to labels wouldn't do it, (on CD, it's necessary on vinyl which inherently has a very restricted DR). But even a reasonably compressed CD can and does still sound excellent while not having all of vinyls distortions and limitations.
This is a Science based site and being so requires you to be technically honest.
The honest truth is that 99.9% of all CD's sound better then there vinyl counterparts.
Vinyls popularity is based on the fact that boys like to play with their toys, nostalgia, they can look impressive to friends, etc.
Otherwise they don't belong in 2021 audio any more than a cassette or 8 track player, their time ran out around 1982.
YMMV
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spot on.. I have LPs which sound really bad. I have CDs which sound really bad. I have LPs which sound really good and CDs which sound really good too. Lets face it we live in an audio golden age where you can choose your poisen and play your music on whatever format you like. Me I like to play with my toys and yes there is a great deal of nostalga there too. I remember the warm (very slightly distorted) sound of my youth and I like it
On the other hand I also love going on a musical "adventure" in the streaming world and listening to new things..and who knows I might just buy that newly discovered album on vinyl.....because I can.
Newman
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Only if you restrict your listening to what you call “classic rock/pop” - some of the least demanding music ever recorded. That’s like comparing F1 racing cars on a go-kart track.
Which music genre was the first to see production companies run screaming from LP into the arms of CD with a grateful sigh of relief? Classical. Took about 2 years.
Which was last? Classic rock-pop, and dance floor techno/disco/rap. Took about, oh, 40 years so far and still counting. They only ever needed go-karts.
Let's not be slaves to science, but rather use what it tells us so that we make informed choices.
I, for one, cannot hear harmonic distortion below -36 dB. I enjoy buying stuff that does vastly better, of course, but that aspect of vinyl playback (or open-reel tapes, or cassettes) isn't much concern to me. Mixed bass doesn't much concern me, and some of the most powerful bass I've ever heard on my system was Rick Wakeman's Merlin the Magician from his album King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, ca.. 1975, which I have on the original vinyl. I have the CD, too, and though it is not a needledrop, it sure sounds to me like the same mix. The bass on the CD isn't any better than on the LP, especially when I get a little bass acoustic feedback going
Non-linear distortions are another matter. Clicks and pops are another matter. Vinyl roar is another matter. All those I can hear, and sometimes I don't care and other times I do. Even so, I often thoroughly enjoy listening to vinyl records for a range of reasons that may not be audible but that affect my experience and are therefore as real as anything else. I don't advocate on those sorts of impressions, but that doesn't prevent me from sometimes enjoying it.
Those vinyl albums were state of the art in the day, because nobody was making truly hi-fi open-reel prerecorded tapes. Not everything done 40 or 50 years ago should be rejected out of hand just because it was done 40 or 50 years ago. When you think about it, the whole concept of vinyl records is a little crazy, and it's astonishing that it works as well as it does. I can celebrate that without giving up my science card.
Rick "you will have fun IF you follow orders!" Denney
I, for one, cannot hear harmonic distortion below -36 dB. I enjoy buying stuff that does vastly better, of course, but that aspect of vinyl playback (or open-reel tapes, or cassettes) isn't much concern to me. Mixed bass doesn't much concern me, and some of the most powerful bass I've ever heard on my system was Rick Wakeman's Merlin the Magician from his album King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, ca.. 1975, which I have on the original vinyl. I have the CD, too, and though it is not a needledrop, it sure sounds to me like the same mix. The bass on the CD isn't any better than on the LP, especially when I get a little bass acoustic feedback going
Non-linear distortions are another matter. Clicks and pops are another matter. Vinyl roar is another matter. All those I can hear, and sometimes I don't care and other times I do. Even so, I often thoroughly enjoy listening to vinyl records for a range of reasons that may not be audible but that affect my experience and are therefore as real as anything else. I don't advocate on those sorts of impressions, but that doesn't prevent me from sometimes enjoying it.
Those vinyl albums were state of the art in the day, because nobody was making truly hi-fi open-reel prerecorded tapes. Not everything done 40 or 50 years ago should be rejected out of hand just because it was done 40 or 50 years ago. When you think about it, the whole concept of vinyl records is a little crazy, and it's astonishing that it works as well as it does. I can celebrate that without giving up my science card.
Rick "you will have fun IF you follow orders!" Denney
Follow the money, they had the cash to buy the early gear.
I wanted a CD player SO bad but didn't get my first till around 1986 when they became affordable.
Yea, OK, for you.
ROTFLMAO
Heh. I have to say, though, that by the time I found a standalone CD player with a drawer mechanism that would just work and not be a continuous repair project, I'd spent as much on it as I did my Thorens turntable and cartridge. Okay, almost as much.
Rick "but it doesn't sound any better than the cheapies, no matter what they say" Denney
What makes you think I haven't?
Regardless, what makes you think the DR database number (which is a crude and fallible measure at best) is the be-all and end all of good mastering?
Same here.
JRS
Major Contributor
That is a wonderful idea. The only problem is the requirement of additional circuitry in the budget gear. Not sure that it would cost much (maybe a buck?), but isn't it simply easier to nick audiophiles for twice or thrice the price for limited editions? In a more perfect world, seems like some compression codec could be used during the transfer that could then be unlocked by the discerning user's gear--somewhat like RIAA, only optional. Don't know exactly why, but I have simply lost interest in purchasing recordings and most all of my listening is via streaming. Sadly, I rarely even listen to a "side" of a recording, much less the entire thing. Listening to music was so much more tribal then.
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