Vinyl is not as bad as I expected.

[levimax]

Pop music has been like that for my entire life, and I’m old. Compression was particularly severe for pop vinyl, not to mention bass summing and filtering. Vinyl is severely compromised for dynamic range, which may not bother you.

A typical 70's pop/rock LP or original CD has DR Meter values of ~ 10 to 14 vs a remaster of the same of 5 to 9 and many new recordings with DR Meter of 5 to 6. Compression is and always has been used on Rock / Pop records or they don't sound right but there is a big difference between "compression" and "brick walled". The stupidest irony of all is that while an LP always uses compression it can not be mastered as loud as a modern digital brick walled remaster or new production so often the LP version of a new release does have more DR than the digital version.

 

[dfuller]

that’s fake news. The vinyl rips appear more dynamic to the algorithm when it is made of the same digital master.

the increased dynamic range is an artifact, not a benefit.

No, it actually is more dynamic. Vinyl has a pretty hard loudness limit that digital doesn't, so you have to have more dynamic range in the pressing if you want any amount of low end. I asked cutting engineers and pressing plant operators about this.

 

[Thomas_A]

There's so much crosstalk from the sound from each speaker reaching the wrong ear that it swamps whatever the cartridge is doing. Plus, I believe the crosstalk generated by the cartridge motion is out of phase, which is interesting. I'm not sure how much crosstalk is baked into the groove cutting process itself.

From measurements of the best cartridges with perfect azimuth alignment and various test records, crosstalk goes close to or around - 40 dB, so this is about the practical limit. Regarding phase of the crosstalk signal, it is dependent on azimuth and cartridge coil symmetry to groove. And my view is that cross-talk at the source is always a kind of distortion, even if the signals are related.

 

[Soniclife]

Pop music has been like that for my entire life, and I’m old. Compression was particularly severe for pop vinyl, not to mention bass summing and filtering. Vinyl is severely compromised for dynamic range, which may not bother you.

Compression IS the sound of rock music, it's a key part of the asthetic, take the compression of the drums and it no longer really sounds like rock. This is neither good or bad, it's just how it is. Pop is similar but much less of a consistent sound.
Vinyl is limited in dynamics compared to CD, but it's lucky to have more than almost all music uses, which maxes out about 60db below full scale, much more than that and either the quiet bits are too quiet, or the loud bits are too loud, unless you ride the volume control, which is all compression is.

 

[Maxicut]

Alas the dynamic range of vinyl isn't wider on vinyl.

The funny thing is that most people find compressed music more dynamic because they can hear the softer sounds better.

Vinyl is a testament of how forgiving the hearing is and how easily our brain accepts flawed reproduction (aside from all the other mechanical and quite audible nasties)

This video is absolutely fake-news. If I send out a digital vinyl master that is say a DR11, after the record is pressed & then measured, it's still a DR11. This person says that he absolutely knows what the original files were because he mastered them himself, which is also rubbish as you cannot press a hot signal into vinyl, as it will make the needle jump out of the groove of the record when played.
He also says that he doesn't know what's going on, or why it is ect ect.... which is the only truthful thing he said...

 

[Chrispy]

This video is absolutely fake-news. If I send out a digital vinyl master that is say a DR11, after the record is pressed & then measured, it's still a DR11. This person says that he absolutely knows what the original files were because he mastered them himself, which is also rubbish as you cannot press a hot signal into vinyl, as it will make the needle jump out of the groove of the record when played.
He also says that he doesn't know what's going on, or why it is ect ect.... which is the only truthful thing he said...

By whose measurement software is this "DR11" the result? Then it might make sense if it's inconsistently consistent While yes of course there are some very good vinyl recordings, there are a lot that aren't too. It's not the media so much as the mix/master applied to that media and the results....

 

[SIY]

The DR tests give unreliable results with vinyl. Not a good metric for that.

 

[Maxicut]

By whose measurement software is this "DR11" the result? Then it might make sense if it's inconsistently consistent While yes of course there are some very good vinyl recordings, there are a lot that aren't too. It's not the media so much as the mix/master applied to that media and the results....

I wrote "DR" so the uninitiated here can easily understand. There are a million ways to measure dynamic range. I personally use the MasterCheck plugin for Pro-Tools, measured in either LUFS or LU. If the two measurements are the same (digital vinyl master vs the vinyl record).... they're the same.

 

[Chrispy]

I wrote "DR" so the uninitiated here can easily understand. There are a million ways to measure dynamic range. I personally use the MasterCheck plugin for Pro-Tools, measured in either LUFS or LU. If the two measurements are the same (digital vinyl master vs the vinyl record).... they're the same.

They account for surface noise the same way for example?

 

[Maxicut]

They account for surface noise the same way for example?

Give or take some variables... the waveform doesn't change

 

[Chrispy]

Give or take some variables... the waveform doesn't change

Just seem to remember some arguments along the lines of noise interfered with the spec.

 

[Maxicut]

Just seem to remember some arguments along the lines of noise interfered with the spec.

Yeah it changes the noise floor, but the waveform stays basically the same.... but obviously not identical. Either way, the bloke in that video has no clue.

 

[Chrispy]

Yeah it changes the noise floor, but the waveform stays basically the same.... but obviously not identical. Either way, the bloke in that video has no clue.

Don't watch too many audio oriented videos....if they can't write it out....but my own experience leaves some of the ratings on that DR site in question personally. Then again don't have an issue with much of my favorite recordings lacking in that regard....rather just avoid the poorer recordings....

 

[Maxicut]

Don't watch too many audio oriented videos....if they can't write it out....but my own experience leaves some of the ratings on that DR site in question personally. Then again don't have an issue with much of my favorite recordings lacking in that regard....rather just avoid the poorer recordings....

The DR meter should only be used as a rough guide. For an "extreme" example, you could have all the instruments in a mix compressed to a DR1, but the cymbles are left at a DR18.... so in that case, the DR meter will read it as a DR18, but clearly it isn't.

 

[Chrispy]

The DR meter should only be used as a rough guide. For an "extreme" example, you could have all the instruments in a mix compressed to a DR1, but the cymbles are left at a DR18.... so in that case, the DR meter will read it as a DR18, but clearly it isn't.

Seems all the data at that site is the same in that sense, it's just rough at best.

 

[jokan]

Don't watch too many audio oriented videos....if they can't write it out....but my own experience leaves some of the ratings on that DR site in question personally. Then again don't have an issue with much of my favorite recordings lacking in that regard....rather just avoid the poorer recordings....

I completely agree.
Avoid both poor recordings and pressings. Especially avoid the counterfeit records which were a huge problem in reality.

 

[Maxicut]

Don't watch too many audio oriented videos....if they can't write it out....but my own experience leaves some of the ratings on that DR site in question personally. Then again don't have an issue with much of my favorite recordings lacking in that regard....rather just avoid the poorer recordings....

Here's a good example of a digital vinyl master vs the same master on vinyl record of Queen's Greatest Hits
In 2016, Pro Studio Masters released the ucompressed 2011 remaster that was used for the 2016 vinyl reissue.
They measure slightly differently, caused by eronious spurs from tics & pops, but the waveforms are the same

Here's the digital vinyl master...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Queen / Greatest Hits
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR12 0.00 dB -16.06 dB 5:55 01-Bohemian Rhapsody
DR14 0.00 dB -17.40 dB 3:35 02-Another One Bites The Dust
DR11 0.00 dB -14.45 dB 3:01 03-Killer Queen
DR12 0.00 dB -15.77 dB 3:23 04-Fat Bottomed Girls
DR13 -0.01 dB -16.38 dB 3:01 05-Bicycle Race
DR12 0.00 dB -14.49 dB 2:53 06-You're My Best Friend
DR13 0.00 dB -15.56 dB 3:30 07-Don't Stop Me Now
DR11 0.00 dB -14.27 dB 3:48 08-Save Me
DR12 -0.52 dB -14.14 dB 2:45 09-Crazy Little Thing Called Love
DR11 0.00 dB -13.67 dB 4:57 10-Somebody To Love
DR10 -0.01 dB -13.07 dB 4:15 11-Now I'm Here
DR10 0.00 dB -14.26 dB 2:53 12-Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy
DR10 -0.94 dB -13.74 dB 3:34 13-Play The Game
DR10 0.00 dB -13.49 dB 2:49 14-Flash
DR9 -1.26 dB -12.43 dB 2:48 15-Seven Seas Of Rhye
DR10 0.00 dB -12.76 dB 2:02 16-We Will Rock You
DR9 0.00 dB -13.52 dB 3:00 17-We Are The Champions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 17
Official DR value: DR11

Samplerate: 96000 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 2929 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================

...and here's the vinyl record

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Queen / Greatest Hits
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -1.63 dB -18.37 dB 5:53 01-Bohemian Rhapsody
DR13 -0.24 dB -16.08 dB 3:34 02-Another One Bites The Dust
DR12 -1.29 dB -16.27 dB 3:00 03-Killer Queen
DR13 -0.66 dB -17.72 dB 3:21 04-Fat Bottomed Girls
DR13 0.00 dB -16.39 dB 3:00 05-Bicycle Race
DR12 -3.50 dB -18.01 dB 2:52 06-You're My Best Friend
DR13 -0.61 dB -16.38 dB 3:29 07-Don't Stop Me Now
DR12 -0.80 dB -17.47 dB 3:45 08-Save Me
DR11 -1.59 dB -15.43 dB 2:43 09-Crazy Little Thing Called Love
DR11 -2.05 dB -16.71 dB 4:56 10-Somebody To Love
DR11 -1.71 dB -16.10 dB 4:13 11-Now I'm Here
DR11 -1.33 dB -16.35 dB 2:53 12-Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy
DR11 -1.29 dB -15.06 dB 3:31 13-Play The Game
DR12 -3.23 dB -18.08 dB 2:47 14-Flash
DR11 -0.98 dB -15.29 dB 2:47 15-Seven Seas Of Rhye
DR11 -1.72 dB -15.64 dB 2:02 16-We Will Rock You
DR10 -1.29 dB -15.93 dB 2:59 17-We Are The Champions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 17
Official DR value: DR12

Samplerate: 96000 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 3087 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================

 

[solderdude]

This video is absolutely fake-news. If I send out a digital vinyl master that is say a DR11, after the record is pressed & then measured, it's still a DR11.

Nope. it won't be.
Do you have any idea who 'the person' is ?

Where are the recordings you made yourself and had a vinyl record pressed from and compared to your master ?
What's your credentials. Did you make any productions yourself ?

When FR differs due to different cartridges and different TT settings and different RIAA pre-amps how on earth can the waveform be the same ?

Here's a good example of a digital vinyl master vs the same master on vinyl record of Queen's Greatest Hits
In 2016, Pro Studio Masters released the ucompressed 2011 remaster that was used for the 2016 vinyl reissue.
They measure slightly differently, caused by eronious spurs from tics & pops, but the waveforms are the same

How can the waveforms be the same when, if analyzed they differ ?

You claim DR is better on vinyl ..

Please explain why:
DR14 0.00 dB -17.40 dB 3:35 02-Another One Bites The Dust on the digital version has a higher DR than the vinyl
vinyl: DR13 -0.24 dB -16.08 dB 3:34 02-Another One Bites The Dust

The DR meter should only be used as a rough guide. For an "extreme" example, you could have all the instruments in a mix compressed to a DR1, but the cymbles are left at a DR18.... so in that case, the DR meter will read it as a DR18, but clearly it isn't.

When the average values are -1dB and peaks are 0dB yet the cymbals are DR18 on the master then when mixed the average over the entire track will still read -1dB. How can the DR meter give DR18 ?

I agree the DR meter is just a tool that merely show the difference between peak levels and average levels over an entire track or album. It is a 'rough guide' yet you seem to take the numbers for vinyl as gospel to claim superiority over digital. Why's that ?

 

[Thomas_A]

There is a minimum need to declick if you want DR measurements of vinyl.

 

[daftcombo]

Lucky guys, who can listen to all the music they want without need of a turntable at home!