Vinyl Heads, Take Note

[charleski]

Miles Showell keeps mentioning 'steam-powered lathes'. Surely a true analog retro-junkie would prefer records cut on one of those rather than the fancy-schmanzy digital computer model he uses?

 

[DSJR]

I think about half my records, or more, also have 'another porky prime cut' in the run out grove. There are interesting little messages in others, I wonder how many people who buy vinyl know these are there.

A mastering engineer pal (digital, not vinyl) told me George Peckham reportedly eq'd everything he cut...

 

[MCH]

A mastering engineer pal (digital, not vinyl) told me George Peckham reportedly eq'd everything he cut...

And still, sometimes there was nothing that could fix it

The Door And The Window - Subculture EP

View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1979 Vinyl release of "Subculture EP" on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

 

[Soniclife]

A mastering engineer pal (digital, not vinyl) told me George Peckham reportedly eq'd everything he cut...

Isn't that a core part of the job description of vinyl mastering engineer?

 

[DSJR]

Isn't that a core part of the job description of vinyl mastering engineer?

Yeah, I suppose so, but I believe Mr Peckham *really* used his tools when he had to and without fear, rather than leave the masters be. Difficult one here, as some masters sound amazing as they come from the studio, but others don't and need work to get the grooves cut. I sometimes wish I'd transferred over to the pro sector when young, but looking back, best I hadn't as I'd have been sacked for wasting too much costly time with questions and sticking my beak in where perhaps it shouldn't have gone - I was bad enough in my early days in a higher end store back then

 

[sq225917]

Funny how Nimbus wanted to get out of vinyl given how much their records go for these days.

 

[Dgob]

For me, regarding this thread, three things come to mind:

Firstly, to obtain great sound from vinyl is generally a very expensive game, but if you're in it the rewards are time-tested (although, granted, not perfect) and rewarding.

Secondly, (and this can be seen as the major factor) there is a huge catalogue of music that is only available on vinyl. This I appreciate from my own attempts to replicate my collection in digital formats. Many music lovers and archivists with sizable record collections will therefore not be so easily swayed from their deep respect for vinyl.

Third and finally, I suspect that there is far more psycho-acoustic complexity in appreciation of vinyl reproduction than is commonly voiced. For example, the reality of live performances where audience and venue imposed noise become part of the performance that our memories cherish (or not). On a good system with quality vinyl, surface noise etc hold no comparison to those occasions and - if anything - might give the brain a sense of participating in a live performance.

Then there's the ritual and build up that help involve the listener in each performance: the physical interaction that occurs. The fiddly bits that many love!

My view: it is positive to remove any prejudices that become barriers to music appreciation.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I'm not necessarily a fan of this guy's channel (too much typical audiophile woo-woo for me). But in a just-fer-fun sense, here's a video where a guest to the channel is trying to "convert" people to vinyl. They do a comparison of the same pieces on digital, vinyl and reel-to-reel.

As far as youtube demos go, where the best you can do is hear relative differences on the youtube stream, I don't think this was very succesfull.
I can't say for sure which I'd prefer if I were there in person, but from the youtube demo the digital versions win every time in my opinion. Less distortion, clearer, more detail, etc. They guy is going on about how superior RtR is, but I didn't hear that at all.

Oh, also OCD Mikey in the video espouses a common audiophile refrain that "music is best played back on the medium on which it was recorded." (So if it was recorded on analog tape, playback on analog tape). That really makes no sense in a way most here would immediately recognize. For instance if something is recorded on a medium that degrades with each generation, then playing it back on a successive copy simply risks a further departure from the sound of the original! Whereas if you can transfer that original copy via an essentially transparent medium (e.g. a good digital copy) then you have a better chance of hearing the original signal as it is!

But, audiophiles are often going on intuitions, rather than coherent engineering/logical principles.

I have a similar turntable, and it works well. If nothing else this video shows is where not to put out vinyl rig… just not a good place for it in my opinion.

 

[MattHooper]

I have a similar turntable, and it works well. If nothing else this video shows is where not to put out vinyl rig… just not a good place for it in my opinion.

What turntable?

Mine is a Transrotor Fat Bob S (with an Acoustic Solid 12" arm and a Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge. Bought second hand as a package).

My turntable is in a separate room down the hall from my listening room, so I don't have to worry about influence from the speakers.

I'm amazed this even worked out. You'd think having a source that you have to load physically in a separate room from the speakers would be an ergonomic hassle. But I don't actually find it any more of a hassle than if the turntable was in the same room. In both cases I'd have to stand up, go to the turntable, put a record on then sit down again. Fortunately I find when I drop the needle on a record it usually starts playing by the time I'm back to my seat, so no biggie.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

What turntable?

Mine is a Transrotor Fat Bob S (with an Acoustic Solid 12" arm and a Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge. Bought second hand as a package).

My turntable is in a separate room down the hall from my listening room, so I don't have to worry about influence from the speakers.

I'm amazed this even worked out. You'd think having a source that you have to load physically in a separate room from the speakers would be an ergonomic hassle. But I don't actually find it any more of a hassle than if the turntable was in the same room. In both cases I'd have to stand up, go to the turntable, put a record on then sit down again. Fortunately I find when I drop the needle on a record it usually starts playing by the time I'm back to my seat, so no biggie.

You must know what you’re doing

I have more than a couple lol, but my main one is a 1959 Thorens TD 124, and it has quite a few tweaks, and sounds pretty incredible in my opinion

 

[Deleted member 50971]

What turntable?

Mine is a Transrotor Fat Bob S (with an Acoustic Solid 12" arm and a Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge. Bought second hand as a package).

My turntable is in a separate room down the hall from my listening room, so I don't have to worry about influence from the speakers.

I'm amazed this even worked out. You'd think having a source that you have to load physically in a separate room from the speakers would be an ergonomic hassle. But I don't actually find it any more of a hassle than if the turntable was in the same room. In both cases I'd have to stand up, go to the turntable, put a record on then sit down again. Fortunately I find when I drop the needle on a record it usually starts playing by the time I'm back to my seat, so no biggie.

I think that’s actually the best way to do it, have the table in another room if you can pull it off. A phono preamp with a digital out would be… like my parks puffin.

 

[MattHooper]

You must know what you’re doing

No, I really don't. Compared to the experience and technical knowledge about turntables many have on this forum, I'm a vinyl "newbie."

I have more than a couple lol, but my main one is a 1959 Thorens TD 124, and it has quite a few tweaks, and sounds pretty incredible in my opinion

Sounds cool! Cheers.

 

[Newman]

I think that’s actually the best way to do it, have the table in another room if you can pull it off.

I agree, it’s definitely the best way to solve turntable microphonics.

However, you kind of need a personal assistant. Otherwise you are going to miss the first few seconds of music of every side of every record. (Neat solution: a suuuuuuuuper slooooooooow arm lift that takes 10 secs to drop the needle. )

Of course, maybe vinyl lovers will now start adding “missing the opening bars of music” to the long list of things that they aren’t bothered by, that would irritate the heck out of most people.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I agree, it’s definitely the best way to solve turntable microphonics.

However, you kind of need a personal assistant. Otherwise you are going to miss the first few seconds of music of every side of every record. (Neat solution: a suuuuuuuuper slooooooooow arm lift that takes 10 secs to drop the needle. )

Of course, maybe vinyl lovers will now start adding “missing the opening bars of music” to the long list of things that they aren’t bothered by, that would irritate the heck out of most people.

Remote control tonearm? I’ll bet they have them lol.

 

[MattHooper]

I agree, it’s definitely the best way to solve turntable microphonics.

However, you kind of need a personal assistant. Otherwise you are going to miss the first few seconds of music of every side of every record. (Neat solution: a suuuuuuuuper slooooooooow arm lift that takes 10 secs to drop the needle. )

Of course, maybe vinyl lovers will now start adding “missing the opening bars of music” to the long list of things that they aren’t bothered by, that would irritate the heck out of most people.

There's speculation; then there's experience

My turntable arm has a fairly slow drop. My wife just went out so I wanted to blast a record. I put the record on, lowered the arm, the music started just as I sat down. Didn't miss a note. That's pretty typical.

If I'm choosing to play a track in the middle of the LP or whatever I can just drop the needle a little before the track (e.g. very outro of the previous track). No missed bars of music.

So, no, I don't end up missing any of the music.

I think some of the other anti-vinyl talking points will be more fruitful than this one.

 

[Dgob]

I agree, it’s definitely the best way to solve turntable microphonics.

However, you kind of need a personal assistant. Otherwise you are going to miss the first few seconds of music of every side of every record. (Neat solution: a suuuuuuuuper slooooooooow arm lift that takes 10 secs to drop the needle. )

Of course, maybe vinyl lovers will now start adding “missing the opening bars of music” to the long list of things that they aren’t bothered by, that would irritate the heck out of most people.

Logistically, I suppose you could put on the the end of the previous track!?

Personally, decent isolation (be it pneumatic footers, wall shelves or the like) removes the need to have the rig in a separate room. Granted, choice of tonearms, turntables and cartridges will play a part.

 

[Newman]

I was assuming the record is played from the start.

And you are just mitigating to 'okay'. I was talking about solving microphonics. We all know to isolate our TTs to avoid the worst of it.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Just today, this video was posted on YouTube. The subject is cutting vinyl masters at Abbey Road Studios. The publisher is Sound on Sound, an insider's channel for audio professionals.

Lots of us are left scratching our heads over the resurgent popularity of vinyl recordings. For those who are of such a mind, watch this through to gain some wisdom. Wisdom about how vinyl masters are made, their problems, difficulties, and the certain romance there is in making master discs. The video features two mastering 'engineers' at Abbey Road. These are the gentlemen who take what they are handed (a mixed and processed digital file, usually) and make it into a master disc that a factory will process and duplicate into the record you can buy and play.

The full video is at:

There's lots of gibberish about "vinyl sound" going about the audioverse. One of the masterers interviewed here explains that "sound." He knows that of which he speaks. Hear his remarks at 09:20 into the video... he explains vinyl's inherent "warmth."

....
If your experience leads you to favor vinyl (which is fine by me), it is well to know a bit of what you are talking about. Here, much of that knowledge is proferred -- quite generously. The art of vinyl mastering is a very arcane and sort of mysterious subject. Real vinyl mastering technicians are very small in number; I'd estimate there are fewer than 200 in the world who actually do it for a full-time career.

This is one of the best opportunities to learn from two such pros. And unarguably, Abbey Road knows something of what they are doing.View attachment 195063

Hi thanks for the post, and as someone that spins a bit of vinyl it was very interesting. Some people forget that for decades this was the primary way that people listened to their music. I know digital sounds better, and I’ll concede that, but these seasoned engineers know what they’re doing, and they were/are a big part of the reason vinyl can sound very pleasing.

 

[Jim Shaw]

Just today, this video was posted on YouTube. The subject is cutting vinyl masters at Abbey Road Studios. The publisher is Sound on Sound, an insider's channel for audio professionals.

Lots of us are left scratching our heads over the resurgent popularity of vinyl recordings. For those who are of such a mind, watch this through to gain some wisdom. Wisdom about how vinyl masters are made, their problems, difficulties, and the certain romance there is in making master discs. The video features two mastering 'engineers' at Abbey Road. These are the gentlemen who take what they are handed (a mixed and processed digital file, usually) and make it into a master disc that a factory will process and duplicate into the record you can buy and play.

The full video is at:

There's lots of gibberish about "vinyl sound" going about the audioverse. One of the masterers interviewed here explains that "sound." He knows that of which he speaks. Hear his remarks at 09:20 into the video... he explains vinyl's inherent "warmth."

....
If your experience leads you to favor vinyl (which is fine by me), it is well to know a bit of what you are talking about. Here, much of that knowledge is proferred -- quite generously. The art of vinyl mastering is a very arcane and sort of mysterious subject. Real vinyl mastering technicians are very small in number; I'd estimate there are fewer than 200 in the world who actually do it for a full-time career.

This is one of the best opportunities to learn from two such pros. And unarguably, Abbey Road knows something of what they are doing.View attachment 195063

 

[Robin L]

Songs on an album were usually arranged so both sides were close to the same length, or deliberitly written to length. Some songs were cut down to 20min. Thick as a Brick had to be cut into 2 parts. Beethovens 9th had to be cut into 4 and put on 2 discs.
These are all limitations of vinyl which limit the artist.

There's plenty of ghastly sounding single disc issues of Beethoven's 9th symphony. The first recording of the 9th I heard was Bruno Walter/NYPO on a single disc Columbia issue recorded 1948/1950.