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Vintage vs New Turntable?

DSJR

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That's because they were used to lugging heavy loudspeakers around all day for their 'single room loudspeaker' demos. They couldn't make the transition from lifting Isobariks to gently manipulating a tonearm! :facepalm:

A bit more to it than that, but this is an international forum and I dare say a lot here won't know what 'Linn Tight' means (oo-er missus)......:D

I was one of those dealers remember and although the basics of my conditioning were good and long lasting in my experiences of live music as well as subsequent system choices, I had to unlearn a lot too which was because like most audio retailers out there, I had no engineering training at all as to how tight 'tight' should be... I think I know a little better today but it's too late now :(
 

Robin L

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I think I had the Grace 707 arm on three different turntables [all AR XAs, but anyway]. The best had all the Merrill Mods save the AC switch, and in retrospect I should have done that too. Great arm for cartridges that require low tracking force [though the SME III is better].
 

Thomas_A

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P.S. To put cartridge prices into perspective, I'd suggest an AT VM540 is roughly where the old universal ubiquitous Shure M75-ED of old would be. The top Shure V15 range is roughly at AT760 and Ortofon 2M Black level today (I'd suggest the latter two models may well be better than a V15 VMR which I deeply respect). The Ortofon 2M Bronze is a funky favourite of mine but fitting from the top can be a bind with some decks (Lenco flat-plate headshells with spacers are now available to ease this situation)

Bargain cartridge range has to be the current AT VM95 models, even after a small price hike quietly slipped in. VM95E is better reportedly than the old 95E model I know so well, VM95C is an update on the now retired 3600L and slightly better 91/Rega Carbon and I fell in love with the VM95ML I set up a few months back (I'm an established 'digital' user so appreciated the extra life at high frequencies over a dull, turgid thick toned Rega Exact I fitted the same day - lord it's awful!)

Regarding the Ortofons I would rather refer to the ”originals” OM10-20-30-40. They are/were state of the art regarding flat frequency response.
 

Phorize

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Just goes to show. But your 'three pages of nerdy' comment underscores an important point, IMO.

Really, in this hobby, from a general consumer standpoint, there's not much to get excited over, anymore. It's not like it was in the '60s, through probably the early '80s. Then there were multiple options for investigation. Things to learn and important differences to discover. What do we have to learn, now? What is left that is important for us to figure out? And will we find what we are looking for in the latest inexpensive DAC from China? Possibly it's inside the all these amps sporting no appreciable distortion, regardless of specs? Does sonic nirvana lie within a dongle interface meant to help you out with your cell phone? The one that no longer works because it went through the wash when you forgot to take it out of your pocket after you changed your shirt?

Truth is, for the average consumer there's not much to get excited about in black box electronic gear. Even the marginal stuff tends to be good enough to not make any difference when compared to the best, in a real-world listening environment. [I'm not talking about Stereophile 'stick it in my system and then write about all the emotions I feel when listening to my music' differences, by the way.] Whether it's green section or the blue, are your ears going to tell anything about differences? Probably even the weird tube gear that folks laugh about, or sometimes seem outraged over, isn't going to make a difference. When we approach audio science... from an investigative standpoint, is anyone amazed to learn that a tube amp doesn't measure as good as an AHB-2? Or even an average SS amp? Does that tell anyone what they already didn't know, or at least suspect?

Loudspeakers are still the weak link (or at least the most noticeable link) in the chain, and I guess if one's idea of sonic goodness is a small self-powered two way forward firing loudspeaker, then there's information here to think about. Or possibly which AV receiver to consider, if watching movies in your living room is important. In those situations, ASR reports will be of some practical value. Plus headphones. Headphones are the thing, for a lot of people, these days.

On a personal note, none of those three items are of much interest to me. I have loudspeakers I'm happy with, don't use headphones much, and having the Death Star blow up and shake my living room is not my thing. So I tend toward nostalgia. Insights about the old gear bring me back to ASR. Guys like @Frank Dernie (and others) who know about it, and are willing to write about what they know. The other material, not so much.

And it's not just me, I can see. In our current 'End of Audio' era, nostalgic analog continues to be interesting to certain folks because there's always something in it that could conceivably make a sonic difference, among the various factors one can measure. And it is interactive. Then, there's the visual aspect. You get to see something turning round in your room. It's tactile; you get to hold a record cover. I suppose you could say the same thing about open reel, or cassettes, but the price of entry to the former is quite high, and the latter doesn't have much market penetration anymore.
Because of all that, I think there will always be an interest in record players--even on an investigative site like ASR. Maybe especially on a place like ASR, because measurable differences might possibly be correlative with what is heard. Or perhaps just because of nostalgia, and it's part of a fun hobby.

At least that's my take on it.

A very thoughtful post.
 

sergeauckland

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A bit more to it than that, but this is an international forum and I dare say a lot here won't know what 'Linn Tight' means (oo-er missus)......:D
:(
Tighten it up 'till it shears, then back off half a turn....
S
 

rdenney

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...Now to older style tonearms with apparently rattly bearings. DO PLEASE remember GRAVITY here!...

That was always my thinking, but I'm wondering if that is static thinking, not dynamic thinking. I'm not thinking of the frequencies generated by music in the groove--those excursions are tiny and no bearing can be tightened up enough to take up that end play without binding, or without costing a fortune. I am talking about scratches, mostly, which are very steep transients that look like high frequencies. I'm not sure the mechanical impedance provided by gravity (for a low-mass arm, anyway) will be enough throughout the audio band, and I could see the arm jumping in its bearing endplay on hitting a particularly sharp scratch transient.

To wit: It seems (and this is an impression as yet without objective evidence) that my Thorens with adjusted bearings makes less noise from damage to the record than does the Technics, even when both are playing very similar Grado cartridges. (The AT44MLa is quieter, but that's supposedly the point of the microline stylus--it sits deeper in the groove.) All the same clicks and pops are there, but they are less offensive, and it may be because the loose arm is adding some additional mechanical noise (i.e. rattle) of its own. Or, maybe that's wishful thinking on my part :)

I should compare those transients by recording needledrops of the same imperfect album with both turntables and studying the transient waveforms in Audacity, but I fear that is an investigation I lack the time to pursue. I have one album played a lot during college that I've recorded onto a thumbdrive. When I play it in the car, parts of it sound like insects hitting the windshield--perfect for this comparison. I'll add it to the winter project list.

Rick "wondering if Thorens specified the endplay in their service manual" Denney
 

rdenney

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Just how many times people can keep buying the same things over and over again without ever becoming bored.
Hmmm. That's a dangerous question.

Rick "who owns 8 tubas, 8 bicycles, four stereos, many more watches than any of the above, 10 vintage axes--don't ask--, over a hundred lenses, two three dozen cameras, but only one vintage motorhome" Denney
 

Chazz6

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In metropolitan areas in the U.S., you can find used ("vintage") turntables on craigslist sold by people who restore them as a small business or semi-hobby.

Regarding a vinyl, its reissue on CD and then as a digital file, it is usually true that the vinyl is inferior – but not always. Sometimes the vinyl, with its limited dynamic range and maybe static and other noise, is musically far superior to a badly remastered CD that became a .flac that sucks all the musicality out of the performance.
 

Wes

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Hmmm. That's a dangerous question.

Rick "who owns 8 tubas, 8 bicycles, four stereos, many more watches than any of the above, 10 vintage axes--don't ask--, over a hundred lenses, two three dozen cameras, but only one vintage motorhome" Denney

Jeez - couldn't you get by with 7 tubas and a sousaphone on wheels?
 

rdenney

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Jeez - couldn't you get by with 7 tubas and a sousaphone on wheels?
Well, one of them is a Sousaphone.

image.jpg

Rick “not just a decoration” Denney
 

DSJR

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That was always my thinking, but I'm wondering if that is static thinking, not dynamic thinking. I'm not thinking of the frequencies generated by music in the groove--those excursions are tiny and no bearing can be tightened up enough to take up that end play without binding, or without costing a fortune. I am talking about scratches, mostly, which are very steep transients that look like high frequencies. I'm not sure the mechanical impedance provided by gravity (for a low-mass arm, anyway) will be enough throughout the audio band, and I could see the arm jumping in its bearing endplay on hitting a particularly sharp scratch transient.

To wit: It seems (and this is an impression as yet without objective evidence) that my Thorens with adjusted bearings makes less noise from damage to the record than does the Technics, even when both are playing very similar Grado cartridges. (The AT44MLa is quieter, but that's supposedly the point of the microline stylus--it sits deeper in the groove.) All the same clicks and pops are there, but they are less offensive, and it may be because the loose arm is adding some additional mechanical noise (i.e. rattle) of its own. Or, maybe that's wishful thinking on my part :)

I should compare those transients by recording needledrops of the same imperfect album with both turntables and studying the transient waveforms in Audacity, but I fear that is an investigation I lack the time to pursue. I have one album played a lot during college that I've recorded onto a thumbdrive. When I play it in the car, parts of it sound like insects hitting the windshield--perfect for this comparison. I'll add it to the winter project list.

Rick "wondering if Thorens specified the endplay in their service manual" Denney

I only have part of the Thorens 160 manual and that concerns lubrication more (Mobil DTE oil - I suggest medium-heavy wee coloured for the bearing as that's closest to the turbine oil they used to use and DTE-medium clear oil for the motor). Sorry, I dislike Grado cartridges these days as they mostly appear to have little hf - the better and less hf-resonant the model, the duller they sound to me. Nothing like as nice as an old F1+ I use in my Garrard Lab 80 tractor-deck :D
 

DSJR

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Regarding the Ortofons I would rather refer to the ”originals” OM10-20-30-40. They are/were state of the art regarding flat frequency response.

There used to be a separation 'glitch' in all the OM models (speculated to be a body resonance but no doubt not audible) and my favourite range of theirs is the old 500 range (I have a 520mk2 here which equates to the Om20 and 2M Blue I believe, but I'm confusing things here)). I appreciate the 2M's are basically the same thing in modern-stylee clothes and I resented their high prices on launch, but these prices have been stable pretty much and 'everyone else' has caught up with them and overtaken in one or two cases - forget Brexit in the UK, '2008' was a classic case for massive price hikes of so much audio gear, some cartridges being almost triple the price today than they were back then (I'm thinking Denon DL110) and almost doubled (many Sumiko and Dynavector models off the top of my head).
 

JP

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One owner reports how he replaced them with steel balls.

:facepalm:

Yet there are more places to look at, when buying used. I have a Grace G707 arm with excellent bearings. You blow on it and the arms rocks up and down, in balance.

Basement room with no forced air. I’d slowly walked out minutes before and shut the door. The bearing performance is impressive, but the real trick was getting the arm in to neutral balance in the first place.

Video is 8x real-time.

 

Phorize

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mhardy6647

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Very nice, although I fear the only sound I’d hear in use would be my thorocolumbar fascia ripping apart during installing. Do you own one of these?
Nope, not mine. Way outta my price range.

I have a rather nice vintage Sony DD with a high-mass 12" A-T arm, the provenance of which, perhaps ironically, was the owner of the aforementioned Fairchild.

DSC_8876 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

I will add that even the "affordable" Fairchilds (Fairchildren? ;)) were (are) exquisitely well made and well worthy of restoration and use by the serious vinylista.

This, e.g., is a Fairchild 412 dropped into a paperboard plinth and fitted with a DIY implementation of some sort of Siemens gizmo repruposed as a speed controller.

DSC_2137.JPG



On topic :) dollar for dollar -- unless one wishes to "buy a hobby" (as a realtor friend of ours once said of a certain class of housing stock!) -- I think the best thing for a (ahem) vinyl dilettante to do is buy new. That said, there's a lot of high-ish priced, low-ish performance (but attractive!) tts out there nowadays. There are also some low-ish priced, low-ish perfomance options, which may be just fine for tyros. Then there is the current crop of rebooted "Technics" (Panasonic, once known as Matsushita) DD tts. One of the line is "affordably priced" and seems, to me, to be the best "plug and play" solution for anyone who wants just that and who wants a very good quality result at the end of their purchasing experience. :)
 
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