Vintage vs New Turntable?

[Phorize]

And here the reasons to avoid the vast majority of cheap modern turntables.

That’s quite an interesting article. Setting aside the very straightforward parts, I did wonder about the audibility of tracking error part. I don’t recall the source but I’d been under the impression that historically longer tonearms were favoured for transcription turntables due to the existence of 16 inch records used for long programmes (such as for radio) rather than sound quality.

 

[DSJR]

P.S. To put cartridge prices into perspective, I'd suggest an AT VM540 is roughly where the old universal ubiquitous Shure M75-ED of old would be. The top Shure V15 range is roughly at AT760 and Ortofon 2M Black level today (I'd suggest the latter two models may well be better than a V15 VMR which I deeply respect). The Ortofon 2M Bronze is a funky favourite of mine but fitting from the top can be a bind with some decks (Lenco flat-plate headshells with spacers are now available to ease this situation)

Bargain cartridge range has to be the current AT VM95 models, even after a small price hike quietly slipped in. VM95E is better reportedly than the old 95E model I know so well, VM95C is an update on the now retired 3600L and slightly better 91/Rega Carbon and I fell in love with the VM95ML I set up a few months back (I'm an established 'digital' user so appreciated the extra life at high frequencies over a dull, turgid thick toned Rega Exact I fitted the same day - lord it's awful!)

 

[sergeauckland]

That’s quite an interesting article. Setting aside the very straightforward parts, I did wonder about the audibility of tracking error part. I don’t recall the source but I’d been under the impression that historically longer tonearms were favoured for transcription turntables due to the existence of 16 inch records used for long programmes (such as for radio) rather than sound quality.

That's correct. The 12" arm had nothing to do with sound quality, tracking error or anything like that. It was the only sensible way physically to play a 16" Transcription disc. Then, people thought they looked cool, and post-rationalised their use domestically as improving sound quality.
It also needs a larger than normal turntable system that has enough clearance all round, something not all domestic turntables have, even with a 12" arm.

Transcription discs were used to distribute programmes to remote radio stations, as one could get a 30 minute programme on each side. In the UK the BBC used these extensively for sending programmes to the Empire, as it was thought discs were more reliable than tape in remote areas. I have a couple of these discs, which sadly I'm unable to play, but they make a good talking point.

S.

 

[LTig]

Hi everyone,

One of my uncle's just recently passed away and my cousins gifted me all his LPs. I'd like to pick up a turntable but i haven't used one in 30 years so I have no clue where to start. Do I go used or new? Can anyone give me recommendations on makes/models to look for. My budget is about $500. I'd like to connect it to my RME ADI-2 DAC FS and i am using the turntable to solely listen to music through headphones.

Thanks for the help

I'd suggest a Pioneer PLX 500 (has builtin RIAA preamp as far as I understand it) and a decent matching pickup. Should give trouble free performance for many years.

However be aware that dirt, pops and noise on vinyl appears much more prominent and disturbing when listening with headphones. At least this is my experience.

 

[makinao]

This turntable is a step above the AT LP 60, the sound quality is only a little better. The AT 120 has a more solid plinth and is direct drive.

Another important difference is that the LP120 oldskool s-shaped tonearm has a real adjustable counterweight which allows manual tracking force adjustment, and will work with a wide range of after market cartridges. That's unlike the LP60 which has no adjustments, which means it will probably only work with the stock At3600L cartridge.

 

[JJB70]

I think it is a truism of classic mechanical stuff in general that if you buy it to use it then you need to either be up for doing some servicing and maintenance or budget for paying someone to do it.

 

[Phorize]

@madmanmandzu :’Hey, I might get a turntable’.

ASR turntable enthusiasts: ‘Noooooooo!!!’’

Then 3 pages of nerdy turntable talk. I love turntable threads.

 

[Phorize]

This is mostly what I do with mine:

 

[anmpr1]

Thorens decks often have knackered main bearing thrust plates as my well played TD160mk2 has and a 150 I set up a few months ago was equally worn out.

I'd avoid the better auto decks at this point as ALL OF THEM need work.

My experience with three examples of the TD-160 is that the original TP-16 (straight w/detachable headshell) tonearm had visible bearing play. To me this disqualified an otherwise well thought out arm, one featuring dynamic balance and magnetic anti-skating. Whether bearing load can be tightened, or is worth doing so, I don't know. I never investigated that.

Early mechanical changers can be degreased pretty easily. Just requires time and effort. One can find videos showing cleaning with/without disassembly. However, cleaning is only the first step. Obtaining new idler discs can be a problem. Much more difficult than buying ready-made belts--those are usually still available for many models. That said, the idler disc on my almost 50 year old Garrard is still firm and pliable, with no cracks. I'm amazed at that. There are outfits that will rebuild idlers. I have no experience with any of them.

Unless one is willing to trouble-shoot electronic parts, I'd stay clear from changers incorporating servos and other circuits. In the Garrard line-up anything up through about 1972 or 3 is going to be strictly mechanical--> motor coupled to an idler coupled to a brass shaft coupled to the inside platter rim.

Garrard arms use an insert 'sled' to mount the cartridge. Mounting holes are fixed, so any alignment of the cartridge is impossible. For a changer this might not be much concern to anyone. The Z-100 sled offers an elongated slot allowing the user to fix the zero point position, but if you get one of those you have to obtain the alignment jig that goes with it in order to achieve zero lateral tracking.

The less plastic that is used in gear mechanisms, the better. After 40-50 years some plastic formulations have been known to deteriorate badly.

Like a car, maintenance is necessary, and it's doubtful that many used decks offered for sale have been well cared for. Unless one is simply into it as an active hobby, buying something new is going to be the way to go. A good gauge is to read the ads and see how many are offered 'for parts only'. If you see a lot of any specific model being off-loaded for not working, it is an indication that that general model has reached its effective lifespan.

The best thing would be to demo the unit before buying, at someone's house, but that is pretty much impractical these days.

Finally, if you are in the US, beware of buying any record player (or amp, and especially tuner) from Japan. Most of the ones I've seen are voltage specific to Japan, and require a transformer for US electricity. Japanese tuners don't cover the US bandwidth. Some models released in the Euro overseas market for sale to GIs had switches allowing the user to convert the unit to US electricity, the idea that the service member would be taking the gear back to the states with him.

 

[Hiten]

It's pretty much only electrolytic capacitors that eventually age badly, and those are never used where accuracy of value is needed, so quartz locked turntables should work until they don't. Frequency generators that aren't quartz locked especially will not use polar capacitors in timing circuits, as their accuracy will depend on dividing mains frequency or a variable frequency tone generator. If the speed runs true, and the consistently, say over a couple of hours, then I wouldn't worry about capacitors. Equally, if you can't make it to the end of one side without the speed fluctuating, or the w&f being high enough to intrude, then it's worth investigating. Possibly power supply decoupling or smoothing caps are failing, or it could be something else altogether, possibly mechanical.

S

Thanks. looks like so far my turntable is OK.
Regards.

 

[Jim Matthews]

Lovely legacy gift. You can spin discs and recall the man who did so before you.

I would recommend a contemporary "DJ" player for serviceable parts and potential resale rather than vintage players for all the reasons mentioned above.

The Pioneer PLX 500 has a USB output though their proprietary "recordbox" app running on Windows or Mac. I *don't know* if that could be ported realtime for playback through your RME.

https://www.pioneerdj.com/en-us/product/turntable/plx-500/black/overview/

 

[Jim Matthews]

@madmanmandzu :’Hey, I might get a turntable’.

ASR turntable enthusiasts: ‘Noooooooo!!!’’

Then 3 pages of nerdy turntable talk. I love turntable threads.

We want to warn those about this particular rabbit hole about notable landmarks, adjustments and divorce proceedings to look for.

Why do these threads always feel like a horror movie with a cursed family relic?

 

[skunkybiker]

$500 will get you a very nice sounding new or near-new turntable. I purchased a Rega P2 open box for $569 in June of 2020 and it reliably sounds very good in my home office near-field. I'm sure the P1 sounds great too, as do models from other manufacturers in that price range. I also have a couple vintage tables in other rooms that sound very good but they take more effort to maintain/fix. I'd go new-ish unless you want to tinker with vintage stuff, which is better bought locally than online IMO.

 

[rdenney]

My experience with three examples of the TD-160 is that the original TP-16 (straight w/detachable headshell) tonearm had visible bearing play....

Those bearings are conical pin and cup designs, and are adjustable. Even the "lowly" TP-11 Mk. III on my TD-166II had play in the tone-arm bearings until I brought a small screwdriver to bear and snugged them up. It required only a slight turn of the adjustment screws to eliminate the play without adding any detectable drag.

By contrast, the play on my cheapie vintage Technics with its built-in tone-arm is unrepairable.

Rick "functionally serviceable design" Denney

 

[anmpr1]

By contrast, the play on my cheapie vintage Technics with its built-in tone-arm is unrepairable.

It is not just the 'cheapies'. The ultra high end EPA-100 used synthetic ruby bearings. From reading the blogs and groups it appears than many of these jewel balls have cracked over time and with 'misuse'. One owner reports how he replaced them with steel balls. The lowly SL-1200 variants appear to be more rugged at the bearings.

Yet there are more places to look at, when buying used. I have a Grace G707 arm with excellent bearings. You blow on it and the arms rocks up and down, in balance. However the integral headshell suffers from plastic fatigue, has cracked, and required superglue surgery.

Plastic should be banned from anything audio related. LOL

 

[DSJR]

My experience with three examples of the TD-160 is that the original TP-16 (straight w/detachable headshell) tonearm had visible bearing play. To me this disqualified an otherwise well thought out arm, one featuring dynamic balance and magnetic anti-skating. Whether bearing load can be tightened, or is worth doing so, I don't know. I never investigated that.

Early mechanical changers can be degreased pretty easily. Just requires time and effort. One can find videos showing cleaning with/without disassembly. However, cleaning is only the first step. Obtaining new idler discs can be a problem. Much more difficult than buying ready-made belts--those are usually still available for many models. That said, the idler disc on my almost 50 year old Garrard is still firm and pliable, with no cracks. I'm amazed at that. There are outfits that will rebuild idlers. I have no experience with any of them.

Unless one is willing to trouble-shoot electronic parts, I'd stay clear from changers incorporating servos and other circuits. In the Garrard line-up anything up through about 1972 or 3 is going to be strictly mechanical--> motor coupled to an idler coupled to a brass shaft coupled to the inside platter rim.

Garrard arms use an insert 'sled' to mount the cartridge. Mounting holes are fixed, so any alignment of the cartridge is impossible. For a changer this might not be much concern to anyone. The Z-100 sled offers an elongated slot allowing the user to fix the zero point position, but if you get one of those you have to obtain the alignment jig that goes with it in order to achieve zero lateral tracking.

The less plastic that is used in gear mechanisms, the better. After 40-50 years some plastic formulations have been known to deteriorate badly.

Like a car, maintenance is necessary, and it's doubtful that many used decks offered for sale have been well cared for. Unless one is simply into it as an active hobby, buying something new is going to be the way to go. A good gauge is to read the ads and see how many are offered 'for parts only'. If you see a lot of any specific model being off-loaded for not working, it is an indication that that general model has reached its effective lifespan.

The best thing would be to demo the unit before buying, at someone's house, but that is pretty much impractical these days.

Finally, if you are in the US, beware of buying any record player (or amp, and especially tuner) from Japan. Most of the ones I've seen are voltage specific to Japan, and require a transformer for US electricity. Japanese tuners don't cover the US bandwidth. Some models released in the Euro overseas market for sale to GIs had switches allowing the user to convert the unit to US electricity, the idea that the service member would be taking the gear back to the states with him.

My comments were aimed at someone totally new to vinyl and the heaven and hell of getting a cheap turntable

I'm not challenging anything you've said BUT... Dual decks have used plastic auto cams for nigh on sixty years or more with no issues apart from hardened grease. For someone new to vinyl I'd avoid ALL auto decks unless there's a finer model making skill established. I love taking these things apart but have seen the results of inexperienced people tinkering, great dollops of the wrong grease (or the right grease mixing badly with older stuff). I have a few auto Duals and it's a wonderful basic mechanism (for anyone interested, DON'T buy a 1219, 1229 or 1249 without VERY CAREFUL research into dearing rings, rubber sleeves on the arm height adjustor and so on and service experience on old Garrard and BSR groove-grinders first...)

Now to older style tonearms with apparently rattly bearings. DO PLEASE remember GRAVITY here! The Thorens TP13 and later 16 tonearms did have play/slop in the bearings and the TP13 arm on the TD150 merely had a spindle in sleeve acting on a spring steel 'thrust pad' for a horizontal bearing support I remember. A drop of fine oil and friction is perfect for 1.5+g trackers. The vertical bearings in both arms could rattle and you can't really remove play in the 13 model I remember - just possible on the TP16, but this is where gravity helps, as no force generated by the cartridge when playing records can really set the arm bearings off. Garrard used spring loaded needle pivots for the vertical bearings from the Lab 80 onwards which got gentler as time went on, but the hporizontal bearings would get you running away I reckon - a top ball race, long spindle and merely a sleeve at the bottom, vertical 'end shake' controlled by the mech links underneath and feeler-gauge clearances. When handled, these arms can feel terribly crude and rattly, but gravity does the final loading here when playing (Plessey penny pinched Garrard something rotten and it's a tribute to the engineering teams they looked as good and performed as well as they did - ask Frank Dernie here ).

As for overhang on decks with cartridge sleds, At the aforementioned Garrard level I'd say not an issue as the nominal inner null point on a protractor is around 50mm (as per my SL75B) to nearly 60mm (AP76 and Duals) to 70mm on a 60mk2 (SP25's are basically the same). With a conical stylus not at all an issue and the kind of more durable elliptical styli used on many of these vintage decks, it's sonically fine and really, it's only equivalent of around 1mm fore-aft movement in the headshell on a deck which allows this.

Here I bloody go again. Apologies for these mini-essays all as most here abandoned vinyl many moons ago now.

The general points are these really - there are still thousands of 'solid plinth-with rubber feet' far eastern made decks still working out there and the cheaper lines were often pretty sh*t frankly. I'd suggest all of them be carefully sited and used with lids physically removed (I can't tell you how much better and really good a Technics SL1500 is without the lid acting as a soundboard!) Modern Rega and ProJect family decks are the same, as bass reproduction quality can be adversely affected long before howl-round feedback starts. Modern cartridges track at 1.75 to 2g typically and this is perfect for old heavy arms like Lenco 75's (no need to carve them up, there really isn't!) and the AT's I love also work in vintage very-low-mass SME style tonearms..

 

[DSJR]

It is not just the 'cheapies'. The ultra high end EPA-100 used synthetic ruby bearings. From reading the blogs and groups it appears than many of these jewel balls have cracked over time and with 'misuse'. One owner reports how he replaced them with steel balls. The lowly SL-1200 variants appear to be more rugged at the bearings.

Yet there are more places to look at, when buying used. I have a Grace G707 arm with excellent bearings. You blow on it and the arms rocks up and down, in balance. However the integral headshell suffers from plastic fatigue, has cracked, and required superglue surgery.

Plastic should be banned from anything audio related. LOL

The 707 bearings were very frail in the hands of Linn dealers. Mine has a good headshell (the sides were reamed out by Linn to take an Asak - EEK!) but the main weakness is the exit cable to amp, the 'hot' conductors inside being a very few very fine copper strands to get the cable capacitance as low as possible for CD-4 cartridges (remember Quadrophonics?)

 

[anmpr1]

@madmanmandzu :’Hey, I might get a turntable’.

ASR turntable enthusiasts: ‘Noooooooo!!!’’ Then 3 pages of nerdy turntable talk. I love turntable threads.

Just goes to show. But your 'three pages of nerdy' comment underscores an important point, IMO.

Really, in this hobby, from a general consumer standpoint, there's not much to get excited over, anymore. It's not like it was in the '60s, through probably the early '80s. Then there were multiple options for investigation. Things to learn and important differences to discover. What do we have to learn, now? What is left that is important for us to figure out? And will we find what we are looking for in the latest inexpensive DAC from China? Possibly it's inside the all these amps sporting no appreciable distortion, regardless of specs? Does sonic nirvana lie within a dongle interface meant to help you out with your cell phone? The one that no longer works because it went through the wash when you forgot to take it out of your pocket after you changed your shirt?

Truth is, for the average consumer there's not much to get excited about in black box electronic gear. Even the marginal stuff tends to be good enough to not make any difference when compared to the best, in a real-world listening environment. [I'm not talking about Stereophile 'stick it in my system and then write about all the emotions I feel when listening to my music' differences, by the way.] Whether it's green section or the blue, are your ears going to tell anything about differences? Probably even the weird tube gear that folks laugh about, or sometimes seem outraged over, isn't going to make a difference. When we approach audio science... from an investigative standpoint, is anyone amazed to learn that a tube amp doesn't measure as good as an AHB-2? Or even an average SS amp? Does that tell anyone what they already didn't know, or at least suspect?

Loudspeakers are still the weak link (or at least the most noticeable link) in the chain, and I guess if one's idea of sonic goodness is a small self-powered two way forward firing loudspeaker, then there's information here to think about. Or possibly which AV receiver to consider, if watching movies in your living room is important. In those situations, ASR reports will be of some practical value. Plus headphones. Headphones are the thing, for a lot of people, these days.

On a personal note, none of those three items are of much interest to me. I have loudspeakers I'm happy with, don't use headphones much, and having the Death Star blow up and shake my living room is not my thing. So I tend toward nostalgia. Insights about the old gear bring me back to ASR. Guys like @Frank Dernie (and others) who know about it, and are willing to write about what they know. The other material, not so much.

And it's not just me, I can see. In our current 'End of Audio' era, nostalgic analog continues to be interesting to certain folks because there's always something in it that could conceivably make a sonic difference, among the various factors one can measure. And it is interactive. Then, there's the visual aspect. You get to see something turning round in your room. It's tactile; you get to hold a record cover. I suppose you could say the same thing about open reel, or cassettes, but the price of entry to the former is quite high, and the latter doesn't have much market penetration anymore.
Because of all that, I think there will always be an interest in record players--even on an investigative site like ASR. Maybe especially on a place like ASR, because measurable differences might possibly be correlative with what is heard. Or perhaps just because of nostalgia, and it's part of a fun hobby.

At least that's my take on it.

 

[anmpr1]

The 707 bearings were very frail in the hands of Linn dealers.

That's because they were used to lugging heavy loudspeakers around all day for their 'single room loudspeaker' demos. They couldn't make the transition from lifting Isobariks to gently manipulating a tonearm!

 

[Tom C]

I've owned far too many turntables. People would give me old rim drive, belt drive and direct drive turntables in dodgy shape. I didn't know how to fix them. The best luck I've had with used turntables is with Technics direct drive turntables. The greater the number of moving parts in a turntable, the sooner that turntable will require repairs. Whatever you do, do not get a rim-drive record changer like the Dual or PE 'tables from the seventies.

How big is this record collection? I had 2000 LPs when I finally decided it wasn't worth the effort. I had a Strathclyde 305-M tt with a SME III arm, it went out of alignment and I couldn't find a replacement belt. What I wound up using was an early Technics direct drive with automatic return, that was more stable than the Strathclyde, partially because the suspended sub-chassis was never quite right, and the Technics having minimum isolation so there was little to go out of adjustment.

If it's a small [200 or fewer LPs] collection, get the Audio Technica AT-LP60X or AT-LP60XBT. Less than $200 gets you turntable, phono pre, cartridge and in the case of the AT-LP60XBT, Bluetooth. Is it the best sounding turntable? No, but meaningful improvements will be costly. If it's a large collection and you really want to deal with LPs [which have an extraordinarily high propensity for physical damage and considerably lower fidelity than even MP3---thus me dumping my whole collection of LPs], I'd save up my money for one of Technics' recent direct drive offerings. That would be over three times your budget, but it also would offer a meaningful improvement in sound quality. Do not get a used turntable.

+1
Yeah, what he said…
if you’re new to vinyl, plug and play is best. That way, you get to listening enjoyment quickly, and skip the frustration part. There’s plenty of time for fiddling later, if it turns out you really enjoy the medium. And you will get pretty much all there is to get out of vinyl following his recommendation. if you’re left wanting more, you’re better off going digital.
Don’t say we didn’t warn you.