Vintage vs New Turntable?

[Phorize]

PS: I want to clarify what I wrote about used gear. What I was getting at is that if you can fix it yourself, or know someone who can fix it, and if parts are available, there is no problem. It is why an originally expensive McIntosh amplifier from 1975 still commands top dollar. They can be easily fixed and hence hold their value. On the other hand, an originally expensive Audio Research amplifier with 'blown' Analog Modules(tm) is going to be worthless.

I had a cracking Stax CDP Quattro once, it became a giant doorstop the moment I got the quote from Stax for the custom engineering needed on the transformers to get it running without a loud hum. Sometimes a repair is technically possible but just way too expensive.

 

[rdenney]

I paid about $300 for a vintage Thorens TD-166II. I spent dozens of hours fiddling with it to bring it up to spec (which was wholly possible with just about any vintage Thorens, because many parts are still available one way or the other). I have also purchased a new cartridge, and use the phono input of a very positively reviewed preamp from the era when phono inputs were still provided on preamps. I paid $300 for that preamp, and beyond some work with DeOxit works fine. An external phono preamp of similar quality probably would not have cost much less. Then, there was the hundred bucks for a mid-grade Grado cartridge. And the $30 for the 3D-printed replica of the Thorens alignment jig. Then, there was the spring kit to rebuild the suspension. Then, there was the replacement dust cover so that it wouldn't look like a throwback to the 70's "smoked glass" look. Then, there was belt at $30. And the replacement pulley wheel. And the oil used for the platter bearing. I did not replace the pad (though most might). I did replace the base plate for one with adjustable feet so I could level it critically. I did not buy the $150 wall-mounted shelf that prevents floor deflections caused by people stepping on the same floor joist that supports the turntable. Then, there was the test record, and then the $40 special alignment protractor, which I used for critically aligning the cartridge. And then there was the external power supply to give me adjustable speed (which was not necessary in most applications). I couldn't live without the Q-up device to lift the arm when it reached the runout groove, or the fancy stylus-force scale instead of the simple one. And I couldn't resist the machined aluminum pulley to replace the plastic pulley "just because". And then I upgraded the cartridge because I had money in my pocket and nothing between my ears at the time.

Are you picking up what I'm putting down?

Frank Dernie has said that turntables are for people who like playing with mechanical things as part of the hobby, and while I harumphed a bit when he said it, he was absolutely right. There is no embarrassment in that, but even when perfect, vinyl playback is high in distortion, wow, vinyl roar and extraneous noise, and lack of stereo separation particularly in the bass. Some like all that, and to be sure I don't mind any of that if I'm in the mood to listen to vinyl. But neither do I deny those issues or say that vinyl playback provides something magical to compensate for those weaknesses.

If I didn't own a bunch of records, I wouldn't have upgraded my turntable. The table I replaced was a Technics belt-drive cheapie that I bought new in 1977, and finding belts that would work well with it had become a real problem. The Thorens has much larger pulley diameters and thus is much easier on belts.

If my wife asks me what I spent on the turntable, my response is $300. But what I really spent is at least twice that and maybe more, but I refuse to add it all up. It's probably three times that if you include the second cartridge I bought, and four times that if you include the preamp.

If I really just wanted to play my records, something new and complete for $500--just about anything at that price point on the market--would serve just as well. But it wouldn't have been nearly as much fun.

Rick "understand your objectives first" Denney

 

[DVDdoug]

I opted for a new a audio-technica LP120xusb on sale because it was DD, had a decent cartridge, built-in USB and phono preamp.

If I were in the market for a new turntable, that would be on the top of my list. A "regular" analog turntable doesn't come with a cartridge or preamp. (In the vinyl days receivers had phono preamps built-in.) And if you want to digitize any of the records you'll need a desktop/tower computer with a "regular soundcard" with a line-input or you'll have to buy a USB audio interface with line inputs. (Most laptops only have microphone-in and headphone-out.)

You can get cheaper turntables or you can spend a LOT more but the LP120 seems to be well built and it's a good value. Personally, I wouldn't spend a lot on a turntable since the sound quality is mostly limited by the record itself. You can spend thousands of dollars and it won't sound as good as a $30 CD player. (Some people like the sound of vinyl and they don't mind the "snap," "crackle", and "pop", but technically digital is better and most people will say it sounds better.)

Kbowzy.com has lots of turntable reviews & recommendations, mostly focused on USB turntables for digitizing so not much high-end stuff.

I like direct drive because belts & pulleys wear-out (or "dry out"). I have a direct drive Technics left-over from the vinyl days and it's still working fine.

my cousins gifted me all his LPs

Personally, I never listen to records. I'll occasionally digitize a record if it's not available digitally. You can (partially) clean-up the clicks & pops (and optionally EQ) so the digital copy can sound better than the original vinyl but you rarely get "digital quality".

to solely listen to music through headphones.

Headphones make it easier to hear those vinyl defects!

 

[JeffS7444]

Vinyl playback is a funny thing: If you have a penchant for fine machinery, it's very easy to get carried away and ultimately spend many thousands of dollars on a medium which will always be subject to audible distortion and never match the sonic fidelity of an average smartphone.

Audio Technica LP120-series turntables are a pretty good compromise: You aren't getting a Technics SL1200 for a fraction of the price, but what you do get is a very decent quartz-locked transport, AT95 cartridge and built-in preamplifier, and it's certainly good enough for those pricey limited edition pressings. It also plays 78s, though if you have any shellac discs, you'll want a different stylus for those (can be surprisingly expensive)

U-Turn Audio is an attractive alternative to Rega et al in the USA, and you can customize to your heart's content and still remain within your budget, or close to it. I'm less crazy about belt-driven turntables in general, but occasional belt replacements are actually not a big deal.

Random thought: If I did have shellac 78s, a Numark PT01 or similar portable record player fitted with flippable LP/78 diamond stylus. Tracking force is typically in the 5 gram range which may seem like a lot, but it's a featherweight compared to older record players.

 

[anmpr1]

I think one appeal of late '70s and '80s machines is because many were visually stunning and generally offered good mechanical and electrical value for the dollar. Folks interested in the hobby would like to be a part of that, again, if possible. But it's not possible, really.

Think about the Denon DP-45 shown in the above post. At the time it was a lower mid-range deck. You can't find anything like it, today. A Denon catalog from that era, when analog was king, lists:

11 turntables from the lowly DP-11, to the massive 48kg, driven by a cutting lathe motor, DP-100. The entire range featured some sort of quartz locked or servo drive, all with electronic controlled tonearms.

12 MC phono cartridges, four of them being DL-103 variants.

6 MC step of devices (head amps/transformers).

3 stand alone tone arms.

Today, most decks look the same--> Entry level are pretty much simple belt drive on a stiff black slab. It gets the job done. One manufacturer is, however, attempting to mix it up a bit. I suppose it makes as much sense as anything. Only five hundred-fifty with a cartridge. Probably great for a dorm...

 

[Robin L]

I think one appeal of late '70s and '80s machines is because many were visually stunning and generally offered good mechanical and electrical value for the dollar. Folks interested in the hobby would like to be a part of that, again, if possible. But it's not possible, really.

Think about the Denon DP-45 shown in the above post. At the time it was a lower mid-range deck. You can't find anything like it, today. A Denon catalog from that era, when analog was king, lists:

11 turntables from the lowly DP-11, to the massive 48kg, driven by a cutting lathe motor, DP-100. The entire range featured some sort of quartz locked or servo drive, all with electronic controlled tonearms.

12 MC phono cartridges, four of them being DL-103 variants.

6 MC step of devices (head amps/transformers).

3 stand alone tone arms.

Today, most decks look the same--> Entry level are pretty much simple belt drive on a stiff black slab. It gets the job done. One manufacturer is, however, attempting to mix it up a bit. I suppose it makes as much sense as anything. Only five hundred-fifty with a cartridge. Probably great for a dorm...

View attachment 149698

This is the turntable a loving grandparent gives to a musically precocious 6 year old grandchild.

 

[rdenney]

By the way, the Creative X-fi HD USB sound card SB1240 has a built-in phono preamp (for moving magnet cartridges), and also serves as a USB sound card. It will do 24/96 needledrops to any computer with a USB port. It's made by Creative, so it's a pain to install and the measurements are only so-so (by DAC standards), but it's more than good enough. I suspect they are every bit as good as whatever ADC is built into those all-in-one USB turntables. They are no longer being made, but I see one on ebay for a little over fifty bucks. Couple that with a vintage turntable and you are in business with a fairly low investment. I have one that I still use as a general-purpose external sound card on one of my computers.

Rick "just an option" Denney

 

[JeffS7444]

A general question. Do vintage Direct Drive Turntables (I have Technics) need capacitor replacement in any important area of circuit design ?

Hard to say without knowing how it spent the last 30 years, but if properly maintained (not exposed to excessive heat, cold, humidity, dust+salt, etc) it should be fine.

 

[JeffS7444]

This is the turntable a loving grandparent gives to a musically precocious 6 year old grandchild.

At 555 USD?

 

[daftcombo]

Get an old Technics with a cheap AT3600 cartridge and be prepared for hours of fun.
(thanks @renaudrenaud ;-))

 

[JeffS7444]

You may need a phono preamp...
I'd go for a vintage Japanese 1970~1980 direct drive TT.. eBay has a lot of these and they may even in their old age and used condition have good measurements.. Click on image
View attachment 149505

Those Denon and Sony Biotracer turntables with their linear motors and active tonearms are exactly the sort of thing that I'd like for myself because to me they represent the very technological pinnacle of turntable design. But I'd also expect to spend a few hours refurbishing them prior to use.

 

[Ralph_Cramden]

I've had dozens of them over the years. For performance, the Sony PS-X65 or the Pioneer PL-630 were probably tops, but loaded with electronics under the deck, with lots of irreplaceable components, so forget about reliability. For simple reliability, the AR-XA or the Empire 398, but they're both totally manual, which got tiring pretty quickly. I've had a couple of modern decks, but they are completely lacking in "soul", lol.

If I were to keep just one, for the nostalgic feeling one gets while spinning records, it would be my ELAC Miracord 10. Obviously, it can't touch the performance of digital, but it's fully automatic, has superb German engineering, will last forever (idler wheels are still available), and just looks fantastic.

 

[dtaylo1066]

How much do you want to spend? Look at Orbit, and you can get a TT with a phono stage built in.

 

[Jim Shaw]

If I didn't own a bunch of records, I wouldn't have upgraded my turntable. The table I replaced was a Technics belt-drive cheapie that I bought new in 1977, and finding belts that would work well with it had become a real problem. The Thorens has much larger pulley diameters and thus is much easier on belts.

I empathize. I have maybe 500-600 LP albums that I collected before I just bought CDs. I bought an AT-120 turntable maybe 15 years ago on sale @ Amazon for $190. It has a built-in preamp for MM cartridges, which I no longer use. I replaced the stock cartridge with a Denon DL-110 about 7 years ago. This Denon is a 'high output' MC cartridge with a small geometry stylus.

The direct-drive AT did have a short break-in period of maybe a few hours of use. I almost returned it because I could just barely detect some wow in the speed when playing classical piano music. (Pianos are notoriously quick to show wow and flutter in experienced listeners' poor heads. It's as if the piano goes about 1cent out of tune for an instant, then back to proper pitch.) Maybe it was a bearing run-in thing? Anyway, it's just fine, now.

But what I have found since I began quality streaming is that I hardly ever play vinyl records anymore. It's not that I got all that lazy; I am just so filled to the top with new-to-me music on streaming that I am rarely motivated to play some vintage LP from the shelves. On the shelf, there's a copy of, for example, Bach's Brandenberg Concertos by one pianist. On-stream, there are a dozen or more versions by various pianists of great skills, including that of my LP, each of whom brings something interesting to the table. And each recording sounds as good or better than the LP from the 1970s. [Vinyl fetishes notwithstanding.]

Except for the occasional tick (that I didn't totally get by cleaning the LP before use), I'm so taken with the quality of the music that I don't fixate on some idiosyncrasy of the playback system. Does that disqualify me as an audiophile? If so, where do I return my membership (and is there a refund)?

Your experience may be very different. I'd be glad to hear of it.
This is just one man's view.

 

[Hiten]

Do I go used or new? <snip>i am using the turntable to solely listen to music through headphones.

With old turntable you will have to check cartridge useage by previous owner. If change is needed it will require setting up and fiddling or a new stylus. Within the budget (already recommended) U-Turn Orbit with brand new cartridge and builtin phono preamp and additional headphone amplifier looks good.
or
something like this which has Phono preamp with headphone out. it will add to the cost with Turntable though.
Regards

 

[Hiten]

Only if it's not working properly, speed constancy, slow startup or an other reason to doubt correct operation. Capacitors last a very long time if correctly rated, so I would only ever consider changing capacitors if I had a good reason to do so, not just because of age. This applies equally to any piece of electronics, whether amplifiers, turntables or whatever.

S.

My TT's overall working and speed looks ok. I am wondering about Direct Drive turntables circuit sections which keeps speed stable (Quartz based or FG based etc. ) and that particular sections capacitors. Do they need to be accurate ?
regards

 

[JSmith]

A "regular" analog turntable doesn't come with a cartridge or preamp.

That's why I linked to the Rega earlier, as it has both...



JSmith

 

[renaudrenaud]

Get an old Technics with a cheap AT3600 cartridge and be prepared for hours of fun.
(thanks @renaudrenaud ;-))

I have something like 15 turntables at home at the moment.

What I like is to repair and distribute to family and friends.

It's easy to find TOTL product at the apex of turntables industry for near nothing. I like Technics full automatic direct drive tangential arm like SL10, SL7 and SL15.

It's not difficult to restore, just a question of time. And it's possible to find excellent cartridges for these turntables like 310MC and 205mk3.

From my point of view it's difficult to find the same sophistication on current products.

And here the reasons to avoid the vast majority of cheap modern turntables.

If the question is vintage Vs modern, here is a synthetis :TOTL for 150/200€ from golden age or pure crappy modern thing for the same price.

 

[sergeauckland]

My TT's overall working and speed looks ok. I am wondering about Direct Drive turntables circuit sections which keeps speed stable (Quartz based or FG based etc. ) and that particular sections capacitors. Do they need to be accurate ?
regards

It's pretty much only electrolytic capacitors that eventually age badly, and those are never used where accuracy of value is needed, so quartz locked turntables should work until they don't. Frequency generators that aren't quartz locked especially will not use polar capacitors in timing circuits, as their accuracy will depend on dividing mains frequency or a variable frequency tone generator. If the speed runs true, and the consistently, say over a couple of hours, then I wouldn't worry about capacitors. Equally, if you can't make it to the end of one side without the speed fluctuating, or the w&f being high enough to intrude, then it's worth investigating. Possibly power supply decoupling or smoothing caps are failing, or it could be something else altogether, possibly mechanical.

S

 

[DSJR]

As a fan of vintage equipment, I echo the above. If you're into DIY and repairs, and you know your way round electromechanical items, then fine, otherwise I'd keep away. One exception I think, is purely mechanical vintage items like the Swiss Lenco turntables which have very little to go wrong, and even then, parts are readily available. I'd avoid the Garrard 301 and 401, not because there's anything wrong with those, but prices have got silly these days, whilst the Lenco L75 is still sensibly priced. I bought an almost immaculate one for a very acceptable price last year, and all it needed was the rubber vertical arm bearings replacing, available for a few pounds and taking 10 minutes to fit. There are lots of similar idler drive turntables from the 1960s and 70s, which if in decent cosmetic condition, would be easy to get working properly again.

I have two other turntables from the 1980s, both professional Broadcast units, and I dread anything breaking on those, as they're both pretty rare, one especially so.

S.

I haven't gone further here but have to comment from first hand professional experience here (still ongoing in a small way)...

Lenco 75's, 70's and even older ones can be a good buy but as with ALL old turntables, they need work and the main bearing shouldn't be ignored as many were supplied new with basically dry bearings, using just the initial oil charge in the oilite bearing sleeves with the result today of bearing 'slop.' Adding some oilite-safe slideway oil helps no end here (I also add a drop of grease to the bottom as recommended in the 1969 HFN review available online and as supplied in older models). Tonearms are absolutely fine for modern mid priced cartridges - I'd suggest Sumiko Pearl for a beefy vintage tone and AT500 series (any of them frankly) for more neutral 'honest' reproduction. None of these have naSSSty sibilant spikes so shouldn't challenge a lower cost phono stage overmuch and both cartridge types track at a safe 1.75 to 2g downforce.

Thorens decks often have knackered main bearing thrust plates as my well played TD160mk2 has and a 150 I set up a few months ago was equally worn out. I know an enterprising soul who cut me a 1mm thick ptfe disc to slip down into the bearing and this bodge restored full free-spinning functionality (I don't have the means to tap out the original thrust plate disc. I convinced myself it 'sounds' better for having a properly free spinning main bearing and so it should with reduced noise.

I'd avoid the better auto decks at this point as ALL OF THEM need work -I don't know the Elac models at all I'm afraid - I'm thinking Dual/PE (PE and some top idler driven Duals are awful now if you don't know what you're doing but sing so sweetly when fettled), Garrard larger format models (all need almost totally stripping out underneath to clean off grease now turned to araldite - Frank Dernie here has been an education as to why these Garrards were the way they were and with suitable modern cartridges, the frail and sometimes flimsy feel can be transcended - 86SB a favourite for low 'rumble' and an arm able to work well with my favourite AT 500 models. (I've a motley collection of Duals and Garrards here - cough - and have practical knowledge of what needs doing...

You know, today and with less 'faff,' can I ask the Op to look at a Technics SL1500C? £899 in the UK, it comes with fitted Ortofon 2M Red and a built in phono stage. I love the current motor design as it's so like my beloved Dual 701 Pabst type of old, it shouldn't need any restoration or maintenance for decades in reality..

If the 1500C is too much, see how much the evergreen SL1200/1210 mk2 onwards models go for on the used market. A good many latterly were used domestically and with AT 540 cartridge fitted (originally, the 440MLa was a good choice), should see most of us out I reckon I also have an endearing love for the original 1300/1400/1500/1600/1700/1800 ranges, as carefully sited in the case of some of them without suspended inner 'trays,' they can 'sound' very good indeed, needing merely a drop of oil in the main bearing and use with lid removed. I have an original 1500 here with dicky switches which seem to need cleaning every few years. Technics ceased spares for these models decades ago now, so be warned...

There's always Rega of course, but you buy into a kind of philosophy course with them and away from the UK, prices can be ridiculously ott and aftercare patchy. Still a beloved brand to me though, but I'm UK based and the factory never far away. Project have a deck for all seasons and one or two of them are good. The rest to me are styling/pricing exercises and the cheaper ones can be incredibly bad under the good looks (the once popular Debut II is noisier through the stylus than any Garrard upper model and even the motor moiunting kit they introduced doesn't fully fix it...)

Apologies for the blasted essay here. So much to discuss and so little time. Vinyl should be FUN, especially with a pile of inherited albums and I believe it can still sound entertaining if you come at it from a point of view of mid to low sonic expectations (it's the MUSIC after all with this format).

Hope it's been of some help. Vinyl Engine has different 'rooms' for different makes which may help...