Vintage vs New Turntable?

[DSJR]

Great eye candy (the Sony looks good and reminds me of its well performing TTS3000 belt driven ancestor).

Since this is asr though, do remember the mangling the music goes through to get the grooves cut, the distortion percentage ALWAYS there, the often wayward frequency response in vintage pickups (The Ortofon SPU does seem to have low surface noise reproduction, but not sure if the highs kind of recess too?).

P.S. As for butchered old AR decks, removing what was actually a very clever, highly competent if utterly crude looking and it seems totally misunderstood tonearm and replacing it with an hf resonant Grace 707? I rest me case m'lud...............

 

[mhardy6647]

P.S. As for butchered old AR decks, removing what was actually a very clever, highly competent if utterly crude looking and it seems totally misunderstood tonearm and replacing it with an hf resonant Grace 707? I rest me case m'lud...............

Wait, I missed that -- who did that?

The AR tt was/is an interesting piece of hardware. A couple have passed through here over the years, but they were in rough enough shape to dissuade me from trying to rehab them, so I ultimately gave both away.

The XA is more commonly found in the wild; but the XB brochure is what classicspeakerpages had handy
AR also sold these things for quite a long time (at least into the mid 1970s).
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/...ons/electronics/ar_turntables/ar-xb_brochure/

EDIT: ahh, here we go

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/...l_catalog/ar_international_catalog_pg_13.html
As an aside, the very original morph of the AR tt had two motors.

 

[madmanmandzu]

Well, this thread blew up lol Thanks to all of you who took the time

In the end I think I'll be picking up a slightly used or open box Pro-Ject Carbon DC from a reputable private seller. About 30% off retail. I was going to pair it with an Art USB Phono Plus but now i'm wondering if i can even connect the opt out to my RME Adi-2 DAC or if I have to use my PC as a passthrough?

 

[Phorize]

Well, this thread blew up lol Thanks to all of you who took the time

In the end I think I'll be picking up a slightly used or open box Pro-Ject Carbon DC from a reputable private seller. About 30% off retail. I was going to pair it with an Art USB Phono Plus but now i'm wondering if i can even connect the opt out to my RME Adi-2 DAC or if I have to use my PC as a passthrough?

Edit: didn’t read you post properly first time round!

The art stage looks like a lot of functionality for the money-good to have rumble filters. From what I can tell the spdif out is a straightforward digital out so should be fine with an external dac.


@Willem suggested a project model, this one I think:

https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/optical-box-e-phono/

The Parks audio puffin is another popular choice, but more expensive. I don’t think the adc on either of these is stellar, but issues won’t be audible as far as I know. I went for the rme adi 2 black edition in the end for this reason.

 

[JJB70]

The thing I struggle with is that if vinyl is valued on the basis of SQ rather than on the basis of its tactile engagement and endless potential for tweakery, then feeding the output to an ADC is a recognition that vinyl itself is pointless. Record labels could just sell downloads of the vinyl version captured digitally. In fact, given that recording has used digital technology for many decades then it seems even stranger to cling to the superiority of analogue vinyl when a digital recording is converted to analogue for the record and then redigitized between the cartridge and amplifier. There is clearly no such thing as a unique analogue sound in audio reproduction.
I do understand why people love vinyl for the physical engagement, sleeve art and notes, the mechanical engineering and scope for tweaking and modifying, but really struggle when it is sold on the basis of superior sound quality.

 

[Phorize]

The thing I struggle with is that if vinyl is valued on the basis of SQ rather than on the basis of its tactile engagement and endless potential for tweakery, then feeding the output to an ADC is a recognition that vinyl itself is pointless. Record labels could just sell downloads of the vinyl version captured digitally. In fact, given that recording has used digital technology for many decades then it seems even stranger to cling to the superiority of analogue vinyl when a digital recording is converted to analogue for the record and then redigitized between the cartridge and amplifier. There is clearly no such thing as a unique analogue sound in audio reproduction.
I do understand why people love vinyl for the physical engagement, sleeve art and notes, the mechanical engineering and scope for tweaking and modifying, but really struggle when it is sold on the basis of superior sound quality.

I don’t think anyone credible is marketing vinyl on narrow sq these days, at least I hope they aren’t!

 

[mhardy6647]

The thing I struggle with is that if vinyl is valued on the basis of SQ rather than on the basis of its tactile engagement and endless potential for tweakery, then feeding the output to an ADC is a recognition that vinyl itself is pointless...

Well... yes for most folks but not necessarily. There are recordings that either do not exist in the digital space, are very hard to find in the digital space, or might only be available as poor remasters in the digital space. Or someone may have, you know, ca. 4000 records lurking in various nooks and crannies of their home, and just wanna play them now and again.

Not that I'd know anything about that latter case.

 

[DSJR]

The thing I struggle with is that if vinyl is valued on the basis of SQ rather than on the basis of its tactile engagement and endless potential for tweakery, then feeding the output to an ADC is a recognition that vinyl itself is pointless. Record labels could just sell downloads of the vinyl version captured digitally. In fact, given that recording has used digital technology for many decades then it seems even stranger to cling to the superiority of analogue vinyl when a digital recording is converted to analogue for the record and then redigitized between the cartridge and amplifier. There is clearly no such thing as a unique analogue sound in audio reproduction.
I do understand why people love vinyl for the physical engagement, sleeve art and notes, the mechanical engineering and scope for tweaking and modifying, but really struggle when it is sold on the basis of superior sound quality.

I was removed from a Facebook Harbeth group (the far eastern one) when I dared to call vinyl a mid-fi source. I was called mental for selling my calibrated Revox B77mk2 high speed two track reel to reel machine to a friend and passing on the master tape copies I had, as the CD's of same material actually sounded better (cleaner tape source and high standards of professional mastering in the 90's). I logged on one day to find the group was closed to me - turns out that the moderator of said group may have been a far eastern high end retailer, so idiots like me were unwanted as I rocked his boat too much... Not sure if it exists now.

I love tinkering with turntables of all types and vintages, but the way I deal with it is to expect little and then be pleasantly surprised.

Too expensive used now, but I'd love to try an AR XB with built-in cueing device. the XB-77 version had sloppy main bearing I don't think the previous models had. The 'The Turntable' they made in the early 80's was also bad and it DID affect the precision of the sound somewhat I felt (no knowledge of different grades of suitable oils back then). In the UK, the final model was 'The legend' and this had an excellent new main bearing and great truthful sound a world apart from the (back then) turgid ripe Linn LP12 sonics - the LP12 is way better performing today but they want their pound of flesh to update the mechanicals - £800 for one of their basic (basik) 'Kore' sub-chassis indeed!!!)

 

[mhardy6647]

Ahem. Real men cue by hand.
ain't no sissy-boy damped cueing on my A-T arm.



Actually, and if memory serves, the AR arm has some damping on release so that it floats down when one lets go of the finger grip.

 

[madmanmandzu]

I am having so many issues trying to figure out how to connect the turntable to my dac/amp that only has digital inputs. As mentioned, i was thinking of buying the Art USB Phono Plus but i'm unsure if any of the digital outs on it would work if connected to my digital inputs of my RME ADI-2 FS. I know Phorize said it would, i reached out the company but have not heard back.

What other options do i have to get this turntable connected to my dac/amp? Should i just pick up another amp with phono inputs and a headphone out? I have no need to connect the turntable to my PC.

 

[Phorize]

I am having so many issues trying to figure out how to connect the turntable to my dac/amp that only has digital inputs. As mentioned, i was thinking of buying the Art USB Phono Plus but i'm unsure if any of the digital outs on it would work if connected to my digital inputs of my RME ADI-2 FS. I know Phorize said it would, i reached out the company but have not heard back.

What other options do i have to get this turntable connected to my dac/amp? Should i just pick up another amp with phono inputs and a headphone out? I have no need to connect the turntable to my PC.

If you want to keep the budget lower, you could consider this:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-ject-optical-box-e-review-phono-stage.18383/

Whilst the equalisation was respectable the adc is less than stellar, but I can’t see much at the same price point except the art.

The Parks audio puffin costs more, but has quite a following. It’s very innovative, although the adc is not perfect, it’s better than the project. In the end I couldn’t live with the idea of a less than perfect adc to I upgraded my rme adi to the black edition.

All of this said, I can’t see that any of the flaws in the above options will be more prominent than the holy mess of noise and distortion produced by a turntable.

 

[madmanmandzu]

So you suggest i pick up a good budget phono stage but upgrade the rme adi-2 to the pro version?

 

[Phorize]

So you suggest i pick up a good budget phono stage but upgrade the rme adi-2 to the pro version?

Not really, my impression is that you want to keep the costs down, so the project stage or art seem in budget and adequate. It’s going to get more expensive if you do what I did. In your shoes, for casual listening I’d consider the budget phono stages with an adc built in.

 

[madmanmandzu]

Not really, my impression is that you want to keep the costs down, so the project stage or art seem in budget and adequate. It’s going to get more expensive if you do what I did. In your shoes, for casual listening I’d consider the budget phono stages with an adc built in.

Let's say i'm willing to up my budget and i'm able to resell my RME ADI-2 easily. I'm just trying to weigh all my options before deciding

 

[Phorize]

Not really, my impression is that you want to

Upgrading to the rme be with a good budget analogue phono stage is going to take you well over $2000. A good compromise is this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../parks-audio-puffin-review-phono-stage.19795/

It’s not perfect, but the features are excellent.

 

[madmanmandzu]

Upgrading to the rme be with a good budget analogue phono stage is going to take you well over $2000. A good compromise is this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../parks-audio-puffin-review-phono-stage.19795/

It’s not perfect, but the features are excellent.

I'm still going to need an analogue to digital converter.

 

[Phorize]

I'm still going to need an analogue to digital converter.

The puffin has an adc but is around $600 for the version with the toslink out. I can’t work out if the art phono usb will output to a dac. The manual doesn’t mention it. As I said, an excellent but costly solution is the rme dac/adc with something like the Cambridge audio duo, or the excellent art phono that Amir reviewed. I wouldn’t overlook the project phone e (Amir reviewed it). Perhaps look at the review. Hopefully art clear up the question on optical out from the version with the adc.

 

[LTig]

I would not worry too much about the quality of the ADC for vinyl rips. I ripped records using an old Edirol UA25 USB interface, and the quality for me was indistinguishable to the original. And we're talking about a Linn LP12 with Lingo PS, Ekos arm and an Van den Hul MC One special pickup as source, which did cost a lot of money. Phono preamp was DIY.

 

[madmanmandzu]

Thanks all for the help. I'm just going to pick up the Puffin and do the SPDIF MOD to it. Will enable me to continue to use my RME ADI-2 FS without upgrading to the black.

 

[Phorize]

Thanks all for the help. I'm just going to pick up the Puffin and do the SPDIF MOD to it. Will enable me to continue to use my RME ADI-2 FS without upgrading to the black.

Parks audio don’t seem to have them at the moment, but they used to sell one ready modified.