If you look a little harder there are a lot more. And each of your 3 entries has many multiple comments and multiple threads. That does not make it true or untrue and it is probably just a funny "rhyme" based on the name but in the world of "audio internet folklore" it is relatively well know. I have come across it many times over the years and I don't have any interest in these amps.
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Vintage amplifiers that could challenge or approach current state of the art amplifiers
- Thread starter restorer-john
- Start date
One for sale locally for $350. Wish I needed another amp... I'd definitely give it a whirl, but I'm already overstocked.
That's a pretty remarkable thing to believe.
OP
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
- Thread Starter
- #403
I think it was Yoda who said "Too many amplifiers you cannot have, as future predict you cannot".
Or did I dream that he said that? Whatever, just buy it if in original condition. You won't lose money if it's a perfect example.
tvrgeek
Major Contributor
Ones I remember: Aragon, Nakamichi Stasis 5 and 7, HSA 2200 Mk II. There was an early 100W Krell.
The Hafler was very good, with a small tweak. With the exception of maybe some Mark Levenson, most of the "esoteric" amps I remember from the day all had a signature. Even the Adcoms, they were "ballsey" so I would call that a signature. Not a bad one mind you. Rotel 800 and 900 series were a big step down into upper mid-fi, but for the price, very hard to beat. Not exciting, but "do no wrong". Don't see Bryston mentioned much, good or bad.
Too bad the 2004 Amirm tested was not re-caped and bias adjusted first. Noise would be lower. Not that it is not outdone today, but darn was it a leader in the day. It handled dynamics so well. Probably as it had a big supply and twice as many outputs as the bean counters wanted. It was also just out of reach, instead of being insane. I think the 2002 sold for $1200. So that would be in the 3 to 4K range today. Not insane, but too much for most.
Coincidence,? Adcom, Nak, Aragon all still pull decent money in the market.
The Hafler was very good, with a small tweak. With the exception of maybe some Mark Levenson, most of the "esoteric" amps I remember from the day all had a signature. Even the Adcoms, they were "ballsey" so I would call that a signature. Not a bad one mind you. Rotel 800 and 900 series were a big step down into upper mid-fi, but for the price, very hard to beat. Not exciting, but "do no wrong". Don't see Bryston mentioned much, good or bad.
Too bad the 2004 Amirm tested was not re-caped and bias adjusted first. Noise would be lower. Not that it is not outdone today, but darn was it a leader in the day. It handled dynamics so well. Probably as it had a big supply and twice as many outputs as the bean counters wanted. It was also just out of reach, instead of being insane. I think the 2002 sold for $1200. So that would be in the 3 to 4K range today. Not insane, but too much for most.
Coincidence,? Adcom, Nak, Aragon all still pull decent money in the market.
Tried the GFA-555, but back to back with the Quad 405-II, it was just too "aggressive" (?) - If I could find a really good nick Nak PA5 or PA7 I would be sorely tempted... I believe there are family links between Quad (Current Dumping) > Threshold & Nak (Feedforward) ...
A PA7 would be an amp that should match very well indeed with my speakers / preferences / system - and has the additional current that the Quad 606 lacks into 2 ohm loads (the bugbear of my speakers) - probably a match made in heaven....
But hens teeth are not in common supply here in Australia!
Yes I would love to see the PA5 and/or PA7 get tested by Amir... possibly alongside a Quad 606/707/909 so we can see the "family" properties of current dumping / feedforward amps. (Similarities and differences to/from the Benchmark AHB2, another feedforward design, would also be interesting).
A PA7 would be an amp that should match very well indeed with my speakers / preferences / system - and has the additional current that the Quad 606 lacks into 2 ohm loads (the bugbear of my speakers) - probably a match made in heaven....
But hens teeth are not in common supply here in Australia!
Yes I would love to see the PA5 and/or PA7 get tested by Amir... possibly alongside a Quad 606/707/909 so we can see the "family" properties of current dumping / feedforward amps. (Similarities and differences to/from the Benchmark AHB2, another feedforward design, would also be interesting).
Ken1951
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Original owner of a GFA-555, original one, and have never been anything but satisfied with it. First with MG-2b, then Focal Chorus, and now Paradigm Signature S8. Sounds like, well, nothing! Just as it should.
If a tree fell in the forest and @amirm (+PP carrying the AudioPrecision) were detained to measure SPL/SINAD (e.g. bcuz of H2O leaks), did the tree really make a sound?
Was it not “blaze linear” amps
https://forum.soundonsound.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=74594&embed=trueBut it’s probably some grain of truth, but who knows how often this actually happens ? . And someone interested in vintage amps would have refurbished them to spec or better and possibly mitigated the issue .
The link I’ve found is some kind of add for a fix , I've found several similar links .
But they would not be alone , over they years several audiophile brands have omitted speaker protection circuits in their amps for pure sound
some older electrocompagniet amps have a similar reputation.
Hipocrates
Member
Fun story, I restored a basket case Sansui BA-5000 for a friend that had a nice Pass Labs XA30.5, paired with a pair of Usher Audio BE-10 and a boutique pre-amp.
Some weeks after he sold the passlabs, and I have to restore another BA5000.
Some weeks after he sold the passlabs, and I have to restore another BA5000.
Sansui BA-5000 Stereo Power Amplifier | Vintage Hifi
Sansui BA-5000 Stereo Power Amplifier | Vintage Hifi. Power (RMS) 2x300w/8 ohms. Troubleshooting: Service Manual is free to download as well as the equivalence of its transistors.
www.vintageshifi.com
Pass Aleph 3
I still have a pair driving stacked Quad 57s
www.stereophile.com
Tillman
I still have a pair driving stacked Quad 57s
Pass Labs Aleph 3 power amplifier
Everyone's going crazy for single-ended power amplifiers. What's the big deal? What is it about these relatively low-powered contraptions that could make everybody so nutso? And has Pass Labs' Nelson Pass completely lost his marbles, selling a 30Wpc amplifier for a price that can buy a...
www.stereophile.com
Tillman
tvrgeek
Major Contributor
There was a Nak on E-bay a few weeks ago. Really hard to pass it up.
Maybe some can take note how many of the amps mentioned here were influenced by Nelson Pass.
If you want to have fun with vintage amplifiers reviews, this is a nice sort of a "dark side" web page, especially for tube-amps and receivers:
http://select45rpm.com/pages/hifi/vintage-hifi-reviews.html#index
http://select45rpm.com/pages/hifi/vintage-hifi-reviews.html#index
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Mics are probably not the weak link in the system.
I had a PSE (Professional Studio Equipment” I think) amp and preamp in the 80s.
(Out of Minnenapolis Mn.)
100v/us slew rate.
It was sometimes grainy, which maybe have been the TT cartridge.
It would be cool to have some older gear like that in a line up.
I was runing stat of teh art AQ cables… which were about $100 at the time.
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I've read that, but wonder how accurate it is? I never read anything definitive on it, and I never owned any of his PL stuff, so I have no personal experience. I do know that Dick Burwen used a couple of dozen in his sound system, for 28 years, at which time they started to fail. That is probably what you'd expect, given that sort of application. It's not like Richard Burwen didn't know anything about amps.
You can read about it at the link below.
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Robin L
Master Contributor
Opinionated ones at that: "no, the sound you really wanted was" and as it turns out that's not the sound I really wanted.Are you saying that microphones are subjectivists?
J/K.
Here I have found a radical opinion about vintage amplifiers. Let me post a summary taken from "select45rpm". This is really extreme, but intriguing:
The Best Amplifiers & Receivers by era. ↑
The valve era appears to have the best in the Japanese made Sansui, Trio & Pioneer receivers, if they are still quite limited in spec. The USA McIntosh, Fisher & Sherwood appear to be of high quality but aren't in the UK usually to try. The UK brands like Leak, Lowther, Rogers, Quad as well as other small brands can be nice though they are less advanced than the Japan & USA product. Look for 10-20w for the best quality sound, an amplifier of 15w equals about 60w in transistor volume. But generally valve amps pre 1970 are nice but not as good as you hope they'd be...
By 1965-68 Transistors take over. There are very few receivers of 40w-45w & we seem to have found the best ones are the Japanese brands as noted below. Amplifiers of this era are only really the Sony TA-1120(A) to go over 40w as our List Of Amplifiers page shows. Some of the best amplifiers are receivers with the tuner, such as Sansui 3000A & National Panasonic SA-65. Others like early Trio-Kenwood & Pioneer we've found enjoyable. The only problem with these is the age, an amp pre 1969 is best used fully rebuilt & upgraded, to use them raw & aged will have them seenm to be not very good.
By 1969-72 Hifi is onto it's 2nd & 3rd generation in transistors. The Sound can be of high quality though the richer bassier valve sound is not around now. Still enough decent 40w+ amps & receivers though you will find cost cutting on some brands. The highest rated domestic Hifi beyond Sony pre & power combo is 65w for the Teac AG-7000 & Sony TA-1130, both are excellent amps which we've had. The Sony TA-3200F power amp is 100w, the Sony STR-6200F is 60w. Generally these are Capacitor Coupled designs if some Semi-Complimentary Direct Coupled ones are around. The quality is still good in this era, the era of wood cases with real wood veneer shows that cost cutting hasn't happened yet.
By the 1973-77 era Hifi gets into Discount Stores & the Cost Cutting Starts. This is pre the Receiver Wars era of 1978-79 and due to economics, there is a lot of budget hifi of not much quality starting around 1971 & by 1973 there are so many rubbish cheap amps sold it's not easy to see the better amps as few stock them. Some brands dip in quality with Sony & Pioneer generally making midprice quality with heavy cost cutting. Sony go low power & cheap by 1972, JVC-Nivico waste time with Quadraphonic & never recover the earlier quality. Pioneer suffer harsh cost-cutting as they sell well at big discounts, a foolish waste if a money maker. There are exceptions and Yamaha thrive in this era with many fine amps & receivers, they stay out of the Discount stores from their 1971 midprice range & the clasic 1973-78 range. By the 1976 era there are amps of 100w being introduced & from what we've noticed looking at circuits, there can be the odd top range gem amid the lower spec averageness. We've rated Pioneer as being heavily cost cut & the SX-850/950 sound rough & very limited in spec. But then we find the big SA-9000 series amps are very different, with the SA-9500 at 80w has a very good simple circuit, but cost-cutting is obvious, but the SA-9900 at 110w goes too much into overdesign & the later SA-9800 is ridiculously overdesigned. At this point by 1976 the top of the range item is overdesigned, the lower ones are cost cut with ICs but the one second to the top can be the best one. Also with Yamaha, the CA-800 is a nice design but the CA-1000 starts to get overdesigned resulting in the poor CA-1010 that is 100w but way too overdesigned. The CR-2020 can upgrade well but the amp as original is too warm & unfocussed. The CR-3020 looks way overdesigned too.
By 1978-80 the Receiver Wars are the game & much insane overdesign with the need for 300w is the deal. 300w is to drive very inefficient small speakers that need high current, totally against our ideas of Hifi. By this era many look the same, garish design based on the Pioneer SX-850 & even UK Leak copied this style & got theirs built in Japan. By this era Yamaha dipped in quality with the CR-2040 range having many ICs in the audio, Pioneer's SX-980 goes similar. The Receiver Wars were over as the 1980 HFYB proves as even Marantz go back to lower powered midprice gear after their excessive 300w & 340w receivers. By 1981 the sort of Hifi you could still find in 1991 was the deal, if silver was now black & progress in Hifi appears to have got even more cost cut with higher power as the Amazon & Richer Sounds type amps show. After 1980 there are an amount of 'exotic' type amps, many stuffed with ICs that claim to be better Hifi than they are, delivering a cold boring sound. The 1965-77 era is the best in Vintage Hifi, even buying a modest 25w will sound so much better than the majority of post 1980 gear.
The Best Amplifiers & Receivers by era. ↑
The valve era appears to have the best in the Japanese made Sansui, Trio & Pioneer receivers, if they are still quite limited in spec. The USA McIntosh, Fisher & Sherwood appear to be of high quality but aren't in the UK usually to try. The UK brands like Leak, Lowther, Rogers, Quad as well as other small brands can be nice though they are less advanced than the Japan & USA product. Look for 10-20w for the best quality sound, an amplifier of 15w equals about 60w in transistor volume. But generally valve amps pre 1970 are nice but not as good as you hope they'd be...
By 1965-68 Transistors take over. There are very few receivers of 40w-45w & we seem to have found the best ones are the Japanese brands as noted below. Amplifiers of this era are only really the Sony TA-1120(A) to go over 40w as our List Of Amplifiers page shows. Some of the best amplifiers are receivers with the tuner, such as Sansui 3000A & National Panasonic SA-65. Others like early Trio-Kenwood & Pioneer we've found enjoyable. The only problem with these is the age, an amp pre 1969 is best used fully rebuilt & upgraded, to use them raw & aged will have them seenm to be not very good.
By 1969-72 Hifi is onto it's 2nd & 3rd generation in transistors. The Sound can be of high quality though the richer bassier valve sound is not around now. Still enough decent 40w+ amps & receivers though you will find cost cutting on some brands. The highest rated domestic Hifi beyond Sony pre & power combo is 65w for the Teac AG-7000 & Sony TA-1130, both are excellent amps which we've had. The Sony TA-3200F power amp is 100w, the Sony STR-6200F is 60w. Generally these are Capacitor Coupled designs if some Semi-Complimentary Direct Coupled ones are around. The quality is still good in this era, the era of wood cases with real wood veneer shows that cost cutting hasn't happened yet.
By the 1973-77 era Hifi gets into Discount Stores & the Cost Cutting Starts. This is pre the Receiver Wars era of 1978-79 and due to economics, there is a lot of budget hifi of not much quality starting around 1971 & by 1973 there are so many rubbish cheap amps sold it's not easy to see the better amps as few stock them. Some brands dip in quality with Sony & Pioneer generally making midprice quality with heavy cost cutting. Sony go low power & cheap by 1972, JVC-Nivico waste time with Quadraphonic & never recover the earlier quality. Pioneer suffer harsh cost-cutting as they sell well at big discounts, a foolish waste if a money maker. There are exceptions and Yamaha thrive in this era with many fine amps & receivers, they stay out of the Discount stores from their 1971 midprice range & the clasic 1973-78 range. By the 1976 era there are amps of 100w being introduced & from what we've noticed looking at circuits, there can be the odd top range gem amid the lower spec averageness. We've rated Pioneer as being heavily cost cut & the SX-850/950 sound rough & very limited in spec. But then we find the big SA-9000 series amps are very different, with the SA-9500 at 80w has a very good simple circuit, but cost-cutting is obvious, but the SA-9900 at 110w goes too much into overdesign & the later SA-9800 is ridiculously overdesigned. At this point by 1976 the top of the range item is overdesigned, the lower ones are cost cut with ICs but the one second to the top can be the best one. Also with Yamaha, the CA-800 is a nice design but the CA-1000 starts to get overdesigned resulting in the poor CA-1010 that is 100w but way too overdesigned. The CR-2020 can upgrade well but the amp as original is too warm & unfocussed. The CR-3020 looks way overdesigned too.
By 1978-80 the Receiver Wars are the game & much insane overdesign with the need for 300w is the deal. 300w is to drive very inefficient small speakers that need high current, totally against our ideas of Hifi. By this era many look the same, garish design based on the Pioneer SX-850 & even UK Leak copied this style & got theirs built in Japan. By this era Yamaha dipped in quality with the CR-2040 range having many ICs in the audio, Pioneer's SX-980 goes similar. The Receiver Wars were over as the 1980 HFYB proves as even Marantz go back to lower powered midprice gear after their excessive 300w & 340w receivers. By 1981 the sort of Hifi you could still find in 1991 was the deal, if silver was now black & progress in Hifi appears to have got even more cost cut with higher power as the Amazon & Richer Sounds type amps show. After 1980 there are an amount of 'exotic' type amps, many stuffed with ICs that claim to be better Hifi than they are, delivering a cold boring sound. The 1965-77 era is the best in Vintage Hifi, even buying a modest 25w will sound so much better than the majority of post 1980 gear.
I don't know. I was a little boy when I was listening those receivers (the good ones). I can't judge by memory. I can only test a clear experience with amplifiers starting from 1977 until today.
"The 1965-77 era is the best in Vintage Hifi, even buying a modest 25w will sound so much better than the majority of post 1980 gear" Really?! I am asking, because I don't remember very well that old gear sound. It was full, rich and good for me at those times, but who knows?
"The 1965-77 era is the best in Vintage Hifi, even buying a modest 25w will sound so much better than the majority of post 1980 gear" Really?! I am asking, because I don't remember very well that old gear sound. It was full, rich and good for me at those times, but who knows?
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