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Very Nice Cheap Kit Speakers: HiVi/Swans DIY 2.2A & 3.1

maltux

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I posted these measurements of inductors in a comment on one of those Klipsch upgrade videos. This was after Danny claimed that the difference between his crossover design and the original design wasn't what made the speaker sound so much better. He says most of the improvement in sound quality is just due to using higher quality crossover components. This seemed odd to me since he showed FR measurements of the speaker with his crossover and the original, and his was much flatter. His design however only uses first order electrical slopes which made me ask if he had performed distortion measurements before and after as well. Here is part of his response:

"That guys measuring the coils is looking for differences in the wrong ways and areas. It is not about distortion. Distortion is a marketing catch phrase. In the end what matters is what sounds the best."
Go with your gut instincts. May I suggest the Harbeth User Group. I try to keep my opinions to myself to avoid controversy.
 

maltux

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may I ask which ones you did that you were not as impressed? Would you be willing to elaborate a bit on your thoughts? The gr thread at AC is a bit of an echo chamber among acolytes...

I’ve been considering building a gr research kit as well as the diy 3.1s with upgraded perfectionist crossover....

thanks!
I know Frank Hale the founder of Swan prefers the 2.1A kit himself.
 
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GGroch

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As of sometime yesterday both Swan's Models are no longer cheap on Amazon. Swans/HiVi raised the prices to $444 / $545. Hopefully this is an anomaly....but congrats to those who bought earlier.
 

AdamS

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Yeah, I noticed that too. I doubt they sell any at double the price.
 
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GGroch

GGroch

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...I am that Brian!

Thank you Brian. As I commented I really like your insightful Amazon review of the 2.2A.....

EXCEPT: I do not agree with the review's revised title that the 2.2A kit is not worth the (briefly asked) $400+ price. I do not think you could make it yourself (including cabinet materials) for significantly less than that.

Parts-Express current pricing for all of the included components on the 2.2A (Drivers, Crossover components w/board, damping, terminal plate/tube, wiring, vinyl, etc) and Home Depot for raw 1/2" MDF (I figure $28 per speaker) comes by my figuring to about $185 per speaker....$370 materials cost per pair. Considering the cabinet is all mitered (I would have to pay someone to do that), I would argue it's a very good deal at $400. I do not know of a comparable kit to the 2.2a in terms of parts cost close to $400 including cabinet.

On the other hand...when a price almost doubles it is normal that we dismiss it. It certainly no longer seems like a good value. That's how human minds work.

TANGENT that explains some of this: I am reading a (to me) very interesting book titled "Predictably Irrational" and the first chapter discusses how humans determine value. The author Dan Ariely says the first price we see on an item becomes its "anchor price" When the HiVi AVS thread started the 2.2a kits very briefly sold for $125. My guess is that a lot of people did not see them as a value later at $200-$250 because they were for a short period offered at a lot less. The fact that comparable speakers are a lot higher does not figure in as much once you have an anchor. It's not rational...but the author argues it is how we all think. When I examine how I look at prices....this makes sense to me.
 

maltux

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Thank you Brian. As I commented I really like your insightful Amazon review of the 2.2A.....

EXCEPT: I do not agree with the review's revised title that the 2.2A kit is not worth the (briefly asked) $400+ price. I do not think you could make it yourself (including cabinet materials) for significantly less than that.
.


Ooops......I forgot I revised it. I got mad at the up-sellers who thought to make a quick profit. I will revise my revision, thanks for the reminder.
 
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Hi people, I built the Swan 2.2a kit from amazon. A budy of mine said I should test each driver for FR and distortion before building the kit. Like a newb I didn't listen. I thought I would trust HiVi and I built the kit, big mistake. Both tweeters had horrible distortion and were unusable. My friend who is an AES member came over with Audio Tools ardware and software and we also listened to them. He said it was the first time a speaker sounded so bad it scared him.
Other people that built the kits also mentioned that they got drivers with distortion issues. Is HiVi selling defective drivers that don't meet spec in DIY kits to offset production loss on bad parts?
Useless drivers, a few bucks in other parts, and retail for $230.
After returning the defective prodoucts it I got contacted and rebuked by amazon for returning "damaged" items.
Is HiVi taking advantage of people by selling defective parts in a DIY kit that can't (usually won't) be returned?

YMMV and if you got acceptable parts in your kit that good for you!

PS, you will notice on all the review that people say their kits are "bright". My kit had "brightness" but it wasn't FR it was a distortion issue.
The FR was not elevated at all on these in any spot.
 

maltux

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I think I saw the above review by SoonHappy on Amazon. Not my experience at all. I doubt Frank Hale would put his name to anything that did not preform. These kits preform way above their weight class.
 

Laserjock

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Mine sound pretty good.
 

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I think I saw the above review by SoonHappy on Amazon. Not my experience at all. I doubt Frank Hale would put his name to anything that did not preform. These kits preform way above their weight class.

I REALLY don't want to slander anyone or any company, but money and time are important to me. Is it REALLY possible that I could get 2 defective drivers in my kit by chance? I guess it is possible, if it is then that's all that happened, but what about QC? does HiVi not QC the drivers at all before selling them?
 
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GGroch

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SoonHappy.... I am not surprised you were not happy after taking all the time to build both kits only to find they had bad tweeters. However, your solution, to send them all back to Amazon after having been built seems very strange....and your suggestion that this is a marketing trick by HiVi is ludicrous.

Did you contact HiVi directly, either through Amazon or through their U.S. web pages? I have heard that getting replacement drivers sometimes takes a couple of weeks, but I have not heard of them refusing to replace them for free. You can buy the tweeters on Parts-Express for $19 each.. ..and understand that HiVi has refunded the Parts Express price to buyers to make the swap happen quicker.

How did you find safe boxes and packaging to put the entire built speakers in to ship...my guess is the shipping costs would be almost as much as the speakers cost. I am not surprised that they arrived damaged unless they were very carefully packed which is hard to do unless you have custom packaging.

Your theory that HiVi is sending out bad drivers, or not QCing them in order to save a few bucks is ridiculous. Building, packaging, and shipping the heavy cabinets costs them a lot more than a couple of tweeters. How much do you think it costs them in shipping every time there is a return.

If you had taken the time to post here or on the AVS Forum thread, I am sure you would have gotten advice on how to solve your issue with less stress.
 
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SoonHappy.... I am not surprised you were not happy after taking all the time to build both kits only to find they had bad tweeters. However, your solution, to send them all back to Amazon after having been built seems very strange....and your suggestion that this is a marketing trick by HiVi is ludicrous.

Did you contact HiVi directly, either through Amazon or through their U.S. web pages? I have heard that getting replacement drivers sometimes takes a couple of weeks, but I have not heard of them refusing to replace them for free. You can buy the tweeters on Parts-Express for $19 each.. ..and understand that HiVi has refunded the Parts Express price to buyers to make the swap happen quicker.

How did you find safe boxes and packaging to put the entire built speakers in to ship...my guess is the shipping costs would be almost as much as the speakers cost. I am not surprised that they arrived damaged unless they were very carefully packed which is hard to do unless you have custom packaging.

Your theory that HiVi is sending out bad drivers, or not QCing them in order to save a few bucks is ridiculous. Building, packaging, and shipping the heavy cabinets costs them a lot more than a couple of tweeters. How much do you think it costs them in shipping every time there is a return.

If you had taken the time to post here or on the AVS Forum thread, I am sure you would have gotten advice on how to solve your issue with less stress.

I agree. It was a decision made in anger and frustration, I should have given the company more time to make things right. However after receiving 2 bad tweeters I had no faith in the company or the parts and the last I wanted was a speaker that would continualy need replacment drivers or need a different set up with a whole new crossover design. If I wanted to go through the trouble of designing a crossover and picking different drivers then why in the world would I pay HiVi $260 for $35 of MDF?

1. I could have contacted HiVi and got new drivers then hoped they lasted
2. I could have kept the boxes and bought my own drivers and crossover

Do you have any proof tht HiVi is Qcing all the DIY drivers and that they are not selling off bad kit?
 
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GGroch

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Do you have any proof tht HiVi is Qcing all the DIY drivers and that they are not selling off bad kit?

The proof is that selling bad drivers on purpose makes no economic sense at all....it is a way for them to lose lots of money very fast.

Let's say that they make $40 profit on each pair of 2.2as they sell after paying off Amazon's marketing, storing, and shipping fees. Every set returned due to a defective driver is a 100% loss because now they have a pile of probably damaged wood and drivers....plus, with heavy items like this I am sure that Amazon passes on return shipping costs. Since they make the tweeters themselves...their manufacturing cost for a pair of perfect tested tweeters is probably $5. Why would they risk bad customer reviews and returns they can't resell plus $60 return shipping cost to send bad drivers that cost them $5 if perfect.

Selling DIY speakers with cabinets makes very little sense to me in the first place. At least half of their defective returns are probably caused by improper assembly or handling. How many tweeters get fried before they are put into the cabinet by "testing" without a high pass filter? (Soonhappy, I am not saying you did this). The fact that 87% of the owner reviews are positive is really surprising considering the likelihood of mistakes by the builders after the sale.
 
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The proof is that selling bad drivers on purpose makes no economic sense at all....it is a way for them to lose lots of money very fast.

Let's say that they make $40 profit on each pair of 2.2as they sell after paying off Amazon's marketing, storing, and shipping fees. Every set returned due to a defective driver is a 100% loss because now they have a pile of probably damaged wood and drivers....plus, with heavy items like this I am sure that Amazon passes on return shipping costs. Since they make the tweeters themselves...their manufacturing cost for a pair of perfect tested tweeters is probably $5. Why would they risk bad customer reviews and returns they can't resell plus $60 return shipping cost to send bad drivers that cost them $5 if perfect.

Selling DIY speakers with cabinets makes very little sense to me in the first place. At least half of their defective returns are probably caused by improper assembly or handling. How many tweeters get fried before they are put into the cabinet by "testing" without a high pass filter? (Soonhappy, I am not saying you did this). The fact that 87% of the owner reviews are positive is really surprising considering the likelihood of mistakes by the builders after the sale.

They should really list their speakers as "no returns". That would force people like me who got defective parts to wait on the company to make it right, then if they didn't, that would force an A-Z claim through amazon and that would hopefully cause the seller to do a better job on Qc.

The fact of the matter is they are selling a product that includes returns. They sent a defective product, it got returned. What is the threshold of defectiveness that a DIY kit needs to meet before it should be returned? 1 bad driver? 2, 3?

I have a whole shelf full of drivers, a ready to build Murphy Blaster Kit my bro gave me, and 2 other sets of speakers in various states of modification/waiting on parts being shipped. The last thing I wanted was to put another pair of speakers on the shelf and wait for a parts.

If I had gotten a kit with working parts I would probably on here showing pics and talking about how much I love the 2.2a. I know there is 1 or 2% defects in manufacturing, it just sucks when you build a pair of speakers and both are 50% defective.
 

Rick Sykora

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The Swan 3.1 has fascinated me for a while. and Amir has one in the queue to test. The woofer looks cool, but has a fairly high resonant frequency and it lacks extension as tuned. The other drivers seem like a good value, but will wait and see what the Klippel shows.

Have built many kits, but have not returned any due to driver problems. That said, I built Carmody’s ZX Spectrum and never thought it sounded quite right. Did not have much experience back then, so just shelved it. The woofer is a HiVi and so might dig it up and test it. ;)
 
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The Swan 3.1 has fascinated me for a while. and Amir has one in the queue to test. The woofer looks cool, but has a fairly high resonant frequency and it lacks extension as tuned. The other drivers seem like a good value, but will wait and see what the Klippel shows.

Have built many kits, but have not returned any due to driver problems. That said, I built Carmody’s ZX Spectrum and never thought it sounded quite right. Did not have much experience back then, so just shelved it. The woofer is a HiVi and so might dig it up and test it. ;)

If the ZX have planar tweeters then I must say I have never head a speaker with BG neo's that sound right. BUT they look cool!
 
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