Vandersteen 2C Klippel data by "hardisj"

[Dismayed]

<The cables should all be the same length. This is not due to the time that the signal takes to travel through a cable, but rather that two different lengths of the same cable will sound different.>

Electricity propagates through wire at about 90% of the speed of light. So make your wires whatever length is convenient. No one can hear a time delay on the order of a picosecond. As for the different lengths sounding different - not for any reasonable cable.

How fast does electricity flow? | BBC Science Focus Magazine

Drift velocity, the average speed at which electrons travel in a conductor when subjected to an electric field, is about 1mm per second.

www.sciencefocus.com

 

[soundtrane]

Electricity propagates through wire at about 90% of the speed of light. So make your wires whatever length is convenient. No one can hear a time delay on the order of a picosecond. As for the different lengths sounding different - not for any reasonable cable.

How fast does electricity flow? | BBC Science Focus Magazine

Drift velocity, the average speed at which electrons travel in a conductor when subjected to an electric field, is about 1mm per second.

www.sciencefocus.com

maybe he is not human. an alien perhaps?

 

[jbucla2005]

I'm trying to find information on how the Vandersteen Model 2ci speakers function when powered by class D amps, such as the Fosi ZA3.

Also looking for info on how the speakers might work when powered by class D amp like the ZA3 on the midrange / treble, with a traditional solid state on the bass, and how one might match levels between the amps.

 

[Holmz]

I'm trying to find information on how the Vandersteen Model 2ci speakers function when powered by class D amps, such as the Fosi ZA3.

Also looking for info on how the speakers might work when powered by class D amp like the ZA3 on the midrange / treble, with a traditional solid state on the bass, and how one might match levels between the amps.

On the Vandersteen forum had a member use Ralph’s (Atmasphere) class-D.
Even a cheap AIYAMA sounds pretty good as it is an easy load to drive.

(Certainly better than the Topping which sounded like a hissing pit of snakes at a Pentecostal revival.)

Another fellow on there, just this week, is running Fosi’s that are hot-roddled with Sparko (??) Op-amps.

 

[olds1959special]

I upgraded from Vandersteen Model 2Ci's to 2Ce Signature II's, after I found four Kenwood Trio L-05M mono block amps. I feel the newer Model 2's are more truthful, with better separation, and are less forgiving/warm/lush.

 

[olds1959special]

I just filled the bases of my 2Ce Sig II's with sand.

 

[olds1959special]

Vandersteen 2ce sig II speakers after/before EQ

 

[olds1959special]

A 9dB reduction around 40.5 Hz with a BW of 0.4 improved my sound (room correction)

 

[Ktacos]

That scaling is completely unreadable.

 

[olds1959special]

That scaling is completely unreadable.

Sorry I’m new to REW, I’ll have to figure out a better way to do this.

 

[Holmz]

Sorry I’m new to REW, I’ll have to figure out a better way to do this.

If the background room noise is say 30-40 dB, and the thread hold for hearing is 0 dB, then -230 dB seems like the wrong place to start.
Is the OSH level is say 110 dB and jet engines are 140 dB, then 170 dB seems like it is going to too far (IMO).

And… ideally… one should also make that while line be at the same level on both plots.

 

[olds1959special]

I am selling my Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II’s.

 

[Holmz]

I am selling my Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II’s.

What are you getting next?

 

[olds1959special]

What are you getting next?

I moved my ELAC DBR62’s to where the Vandersteens were but put them on stands and I’m trying that for now. I ordered DB52 Debut 3.0’s for my desktop setup where I may use my ELAC SUB1010 too. I feel the DBR62’s don’t need a sub. I’m not totally sure yet if I should ditch the Vandies tbh but this first day of experimentation seems promising. I haven’t measured pink noise yet but for my needs the DBR62 seem to work fine. I was looking at DFR52’s but they are expensive and may be unnecessary.

 

[Holmz]

I moved my ELAC DBR62’s to where the Vandersteens were but put them on stands and I’m trying that for now. I ordered DB52 Debut 3.0’s for my desktop setup where I may use my ELAC SUB1010 too. I feel the DBR62’s don’t need a sub. I’m not totally sure yet if I should ditch the Vandies tbh but this first day of experimentation seems promising. I haven’t measured pink noise yet but for my needs the DBR62 seem to work fine. I was looking at DFR52’s but they are expensive and may be unnecessary.

There is a review of them on here, and it says
Preference Rating
SCORE: 5.7
SCORE w/sub: 7.8
There were a lot of cabinet resonances that would drive me bonkers.


From spinorama…. The Vandy says:

Tonality (Preference) Score

• Tonality (Preference) Score is 4.27 and would be 6.14with a perfect subwoofer.
  • Details: NBD: ON 0.808, LW 0.641, SP 0.433, PIR 0.446; SM: SP0.914, PIR0.782; LFQ 1.504, LFX 39Hz
• Tonality (Preference) Score is 5.89 with an EQ and would be 7.38 with a perfect subwoofer and the same EQ.

- If you are not running an EQ then the ELACs make some sense.
- If you are running an EQ then the 2C.
- Hence: It seems like sort of a dead heat?

It comes down to whether the resonances are a deal breaker or not for you.
And whether tonality is more important than imaging etc.

 

[olds1959special]

There is a review of them on here, and it says
Preference Rating
SCORE: 5.7
SCORE w/sub: 7.8
There were a lot of cabinet resonances that would drive me bonkers.


From spinorama…. The Vandy says:

Tonality (Preference) Score

• Tonality (Preference) Score is 4.27 and would be 6.14with a perfect subwoofer.
  • Details: NBD: ON 0.808, LW 0.641, SP 0.433, PIR 0.446; SM: SP0.914, PIR0.782; LFQ 1.504, LFX 39Hz
• Tonality (Preference) Score is 5.89 with an EQ and would be 7.38 with a perfect subwoofer and the same EQ.

- If you are not running an EQ then the ELACs make some sense.
- If you are running an EQ then the 2C.
- Hence: It seems like sort of a dead heat?

It comes down to whether the resonances are a deal breaker or not for you.
And whether tonality is more important than imaging etc.

I haven't sold my Vandersteens yet, so I did something unconventional, I set them up like this as a computer speaker! Also, I'm using my SUB1010 with the DBR62's in the living room and it's definitely better.

 

[olds1959special]

There is a review of them on here, and it says
Preference Rating
SCORE: 5.7
SCORE w/sub: 7.8
There were a lot of cabinet resonances that would drive me bonkers.


From spinorama…. The Vandy says:

Tonality (Preference) Score

• Tonality (Preference) Score is 4.27 and would be 6.14with a perfect subwoofer.
  • Details: NBD: ON 0.808, LW 0.641, SP 0.433, PIR 0.446; SM: SP0.914, PIR0.782; LFQ 1.504, LFX 39Hz
• Tonality (Preference) Score is 5.89 with an EQ and would be 7.38 with a perfect subwoofer and the same EQ.

- If you are not running an EQ then the ELACs make some sense.
- If you are running an EQ then the 2C.
- Hence: It seems like sort of a dead heat?

It comes down to whether the resonances are a deal breaker or not for you.
And whether tonality is more important than imaging etc.

Resonances? What about the directivity? Vandersteens sound mushy and bloated. Right now at least the tweeters are closer to my ears but it doesn’t help much. The Vandies use first order crossovers leading to overlap of frequencies, plus the open baffle design, so it’s sounds unfocused and mushy.

 

[olds1959special]

Looking for something newer and better I tried some small Elac bookshelf speakers on stands with a subwoofer to replace my Vandy 2Ce’s. It was okay but I missed my Vandies. I put them back but in a new way utilizing new philosophies about audio. First off, if speaker cables are short and thick biwiring is not needed, so I made jumper cables. Secondly, some better newer class D amps, even if they exhibit load dependency, can work fine if powerful enough. Thirdly, digital volume control is superior if the volume control is well implemented. While I find the Vandies too be subjectively warm and spread with a little lack of focus in the high end, they seem to have the body and musicality I like. Lastly, I am using them with a subwoofer now, no crossover, I just set the LPF to around 45 Hz where the Vandies start to roll off.

 

[Daverz]

I haven't sold my Vandersteens yet, so I did something unconventional, I set them up like this as a computer speaker! Also, I'm using my SUB1010 with the DBR62's in the living room and it's definitely better.

View attachment 469672

Check the manual for the speakers to see what the minimum listening distance from each speaker is. I believe it would be the minimum distance in the tilt chart, which looks to be about 7 feet.

https://www.vandersteen.com//media/files/Manuals/2ce_signature_ii_manual.pdf

 

[olds1959special]

Why I considered selling my Vandies:



1. Sound characteristics

• "Slow and dark" sounding: Some listeners perceive Vandersteen speakers as having a "slow and dark" tonality, according to TONEAudio Magazine. This might be due to the time-aligned design and specific crossover slopes employed by Vandersteen. However, it's worth noting that this can also be attributed to improper setup and placement, says TONEAudio Magazine.
• "Dead and lifeless" soundstage: Some users, particularly when comparing to other brands like JBL, describe the soundstage as lacking excitement and appearing "dead" or "lifeless,".
• Narrow sweet spot: Achieving the optimal sound with Vandersteens often requires precise placement and seating within a very specific listening window, states a user on the Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum. Moving outside this "sweet spot" can lead to a less engaging listening experience.
• Specific tonal balance: While many find the sound natural and balanced, some find them "midrangey", or perceive issues like a muted bass response or over-emphasized high frequencies, depending on the model and recording quality.

2. Technical and design choices

• First-order crossovers: Vandersteen's use of first-order crossovers, which have shallower slopes, leads to overlapping frequencies between drivers, according to a YouTube video. While some appreciate the phase coherency offered by this design, others argue it can cause unwanted interactions and affect the soundstage and frequency response, leading to what's described as "comb filtering" issues in some reviews.
• Demanding setup: Achieving optimal performance with Vandersteen speakers often requires meticulous setup, including precise placement, toe-in angle adjustments, and adequate room space, notes the Audiogon Forums. Failure to properly set them up can lead to a compromised sound, says a user on the Audiogon Forums.
• Power hungry: Many Vandersteen models are not particularly sensitive and benefit from powerful amplifiers to deliver their full potential, according to the Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum. This can be a drawback for those with lower-powered amplification.

3. Other factors

• Room size dependency: Some users claim that Vandersteen speakers require a large listening room to sound their best, losing their imaging magic and becoming "boxy and shouty" in smaller spaces, according to a user on the Audiogon Forums. However, others dispute this, citing positive experiences in smaller rooms.
• Older technology vs. modern alternatives: Some audiophiles find that older Vandersteen models, particularly the early Model 2, might not keep pace with the performance of more modern speakers, says a user on the Audiogon Forums. This is subjective and depends on individual preferences for sound and features.

It's important to remember

• Subjectivity: Audio preferences are highly personal. What one listener considers a flaw, another might appreciate as a unique sonic characteristic.
• System matching: The overall performance of a speaker is heavily influenced by the accompanying equipment (amplifier, source, cables) and the listening room itself. Poor system matching can easily lead to a negative listening experience, regardless of the speaker's inherent quality.
• Setup is key: As highlighted earlier, proper setup and placement are crucial for Vandersteen speakers to reveal their strengths.

How I made my Model 2Ce sig II's sound better (to me

Removed the large wooden entertainment unit and replaced with a smaller, lighter one.

SMSL PA200 GALLIUM NITRIDE POWER AMPLIFIER (CLASS D) - 85 watts per channel, in PURE POWER AMP mode paired with SMSL DL200

Using DIGITAL Volume control. With this amount of power, the digital volume has a usable range. This way the analog circuity of the pre-amp is bypassed (no longer needed.)



I did bi-wire after all, using four 14 AWG wires per speaker wrapped together going to the + and - of the amp.



I ended up boosting the tweeter control to +1dB



I added a Klipsch S-121SW 12” digital subwoofer. While some controversy exists about the quality of this brand, I find it hard to believe there are actually big differences in the sound quality of bass that low. Also, I found it used for 1/3 of the new price. I put it on bricks to prevent rattling sounds.



I have a new couch, rug, and small oval coffee table too.