Value Rigidity

[Astoneroad]

Every time that I've tried to discuss value rigidity with anyone, it has ended with disconnect. The best short example, for me, is from Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" where he explains it as a Monkey Trap. It seems not a day goes by where someone, even on ASR, posts the miracle of footers, or cables or boxes of dirt... and will NOT budge... no matter how many smarty pants audio professionals show and tell them otherwise.

What are some other examples of value rigidity... i.e. "Monkey Traps" that you observe that drive you crazy?

From Robert Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" -

"The most striking example of value rigidity I can think of is the old South Indian Monkey Trap, which depends on value rigidity for its effectiveness. The trap consists of a hollowed-out coconut chained to a stake. The coconut has some rice inside which can be grabbed through a small hole. The hole is big enough so that the monkey's hand can go in, but too small for his fist with rice in it to come out. The monkey reaches in and is suddenly trapped...by nothing more than his own value rigidity. He can't revalue the rice. He cannot see that freedom without rice is more valuable than capture with it. The villagers are coming to get him and take him away. They're coming closer -- closer! -- now! What general advice...not specific advice...but what general advice would you give the poor monkey in circumstances like this?

Well, I think you might say exactly what I've been saying about value rigidity, with perhaps a little extra urgency. There is a fact this monkey should know: if he opens his hand he's free. But how is he going to discover this fact? By removing the value rigidity that rates rice above freedom. How is he going to do that? Well, he should somehow try to slow down deliberately and go over ground that he has been over before and see if things he thought were important really were important and, well, stop yanking and just stare at the coconut for a while. Before long he should get a nibble from a little fact wondering if he is interested in it. He should try to understand this fact not so much in terms of his big problem as for its own sake. That problem may not be as big as he thinks it is. That fact may not be as small as he thinks it is either. That's about all the general information you can give him."​

 

[Blumlein 88]

I've heard or read people saying when you are stuck in life be patient, a guide will soon appear. Or if religious be patient God will send you an angel or a spirit guide to show you the way.

What I think really happens is if you are stuck, only then are you open to consider other ways and sure enough someone will get your attention to attempt something different. It has been some time since reading Pirsig, but I seem to recall he had some essays on being stuck or stuck-ness.

Certainly at such times one is more open to considering a different way. Yet, more than that, when I've re-oriented my thinking even when it seemed rather sudden in retrospect it was gradual. A conglomeration of things that swayed me in another direction. Even if nothing happened and suddenly the switch flipped it may have been one thing, but it was not one thing in isolation. Most of these times I even later could recall I could have done the same thing much earlier. Often there were people showing me the way which I ignored or somehow didn't hear at the time. So likely these people are around and you are ignoring them until you are ready.

So we sometimes see people show up here with questions and they are honest and either learn from it or at least aren't put off. More often is someone who seems to come here to show us how crazy and off target we are. Almost never do those people change. Usually they become more strident until they get banned or quietly disappear from participation. Of course we don't know how often that creates a bit of cognitive dissonance which at some later time may have an effect after all.

This isn't a very good message to people who are trying to be rational because if rationality was all it took things wouldn't work this way. Truth is most people are pretty rational within what knowledge and experience they have. Rationality by itself doesn't let one step outside your frame of reference, your life experience and be "objective". You can be logical and so far off base because of the facts you have at your disposal. Until this part of what it means to live is incorporated into AI systems I don't see how they can ever be more than fancy party trick or at best a specialized tool.

So value is usually going to defend itself. If something has substantial value in one's mind, it isn't going to be discarded. The most sacredly held values resist the most. I'm not contributing to your request for value rigidity that drives me crazy. Because there are so many. Because some I've been rigid about would now drive me crazy. Because everyone has some value rigidity by its nature and I don't want to criticize or make fun of it. Just like the rest of us everyone is doing the best they can.

 

[egellings]

Every time that I've tried to discuss value rigidity with anyone, it has ended with disconnect. The best short example, for me, is from Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" where he explains it as a Monkey Trap. It seems not a day goes by where someone, even on ASR, posts the miracle of footers, or cables or boxes of dirt... and will NOT budge... no matter how many smarty pants audio professionals show and tell them otherwise.

What are some other examples of value rigidity... i.e. "Monkey Traps" that you observe that drive you crazy?

From Robert Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" -

"The most striking example of value rigidity I can think of is the old South Indian Monkey Trap, which depends on value rigidity for its effectiveness. The trap consists of a hollowed-out coconut chained to a stake. The coconut has some rice inside which can be grabbed through a small hole. The hole is big enough so that the monkey's hand can go in, but too small for his fist with rice in it to come out. The monkey reaches in and is suddenly trapped...by nothing more than his own value rigidity. He can't revalue the rice. He cannot see that freedom without rice is more valuable than capture with it. The villagers are coming to get him and take him away. They're coming closer -- closer! -- now! What general advice...not specific advice...but what general advice would you give the poor monkey in circumstances like this?

Well, I think you might say exactly what I've been saying about value rigidity, with perhaps a little extra urgency. There is a fact this monkey should know: if he opens his hand he's free. But how is he going to discover this fact? By removing the value rigidity that rates rice above freedom. How is he going to do that? Well, he should somehow try to slow down deliberately and go over ground that he has been over before and see if things he thought were important really were important and, well, stop yanking and just stare at the coconut for a while. Before long he should get a nibble from a little fact wondering if he is interested in it. He should try to understand this fact not so much in terms of his big problem as for its own sake. That problem may not be as big as he thinks it is. That fact may not be as small as he thinks it is either. That's about all the general information you can give him."​

I am not sure that a monkey is mentally able to ponder a situation like that. It simply doesn't know any better about hand size and hole diameter; i.e. that opening the hand would allow freedom.

 

[Astoneroad]

I am not sure that a monkey is mentally able to ponder a situation like that. It simply doesn't know any better about hand size and hole diameter; i.e. that opening the hand would allow freedom.

It was never about a monkey. In that regard, I am not sure that a man is mentally able to ponder a situation like that. He simply doesn't know any better and holds onto the rice with a death grip... is the takeaway cautionary tale.

 

[Astoneroad]

I've heard or read people saying when you are stuck in life be patient, a guide will soon appear. Or if religious be patient God will send you an angel or a spirit guide to show you the way.

What I think really happens is if you are stuck, only then are you open to consider other ways and sure enough someone will get your attention to attempt something different. It has been some time since reading Pirsig, but I seem to recall he had some essays on being stuck or stuck-ness.

Certainly at such times one is more open to considering a different way. Yet, more than that, when I've re-oriented my thinking even when it seemed rather sudden in retrospect it was gradual. A conglomeration of things that swayed me in another direction. Even if it nothing happened and suddenly the switch flipped it may have been one thing, but it was not one thing in isolation. Most of these times I even later could recall I could have done the same thing much earlier. Often there were people showing me the way which I ignored or somehow didn't hear at the time. So likely these people are around and you are ignoring them until you are ready.

So we sometimes see people show up here with questions and they are honest and either learn from it or at least aren't put off. More often is someone who seems to come here to show us how crazy and off target we are. Almost never do those people change. Usually they become more strident until they get banned or quietly disappear from participation. Of course we don't know how often that creates a bit of cognitive dissonance which at some later time may have an effect after all.

This isn't a very good message to people who are trying to be rational because if rationality was all it took things wouldn't work this way. Truth is most people are pretty rational within what knowledge and experience they have. Rationality by itself doesn't let one step outside your frame of reference, your life experience and be "objective". You can be logical and so far off base because of the facts you have at your disposal. Until this part of what it means to live is incorporated into AI systems I don't see how they can ever be more than fancy party trick or at best a specialized tool.

So value is usually going to defend itself. If something has substantial value in one's mind, it isn't going to be discarded. The most sacredly held values resist the most. I'm not contributing to your request for value rigidity that drives me crazy. Because there are so many. Because some I've been rigid about would now drive me crazy. Because everyone has some value rigidity by its nature and I don't want to criticize or make fun of it. Just like the rest of us everyone is doing the best they can.

Yes. I could leave my response at simply that one word, because I happen to concur with the various threads that weave through your post. Yes, regarding Pirsig's "stuckness". Yes regarding the proportional pounds per square inch of pressure exerted in their grip of "value". Value in this case is almost always a form of belief, rather than knowledge that could be expressed in logic, or math... ending in an actual or metaphorical Bonfire of the Vanities... Savonarola's version... not Tom Wolfe.

ASR is the only place where I encounter, rarely, that cognitive disconnect. I've been a recluse for 20 years (Plato's cave) and this is the only place that I have any discourse with humans... lol. So, the defense of the sound of a dac or cables from someone holding the rice too tight is as much value rigidity as I'm willing to allow to consume any of my time. However... my sweet pitbull's value rigidity is tolerated... although exasperatingly so sometimes... lol.

 

[Taiga]

I know people who would solve the dilemma by gnawing their hand off at the wrist.

 

[Astoneroad]

I know people who would solve the dilemma by gnawing their hand off at the wrist.

Yes... and then proudly show off the dismembered fist... still grasping the rice... to their Simeon cohorts.

 

[Sokel]

"Sticks to his guns" is a long time "value" to be thrown away easily, along with "men don't cry, etc, etc.
Is more than a mental state when you grow up like that, it's a soul tattoo that can't be lasered off.

Audio is more than OK for lots of people, up close we usually laugh with all the crazy stuff.
Is the on-line character which is a totally false picture that is the monkey trapped, to a self that wants to win something, anything.

The very same behavior is across everything, not just audio. I usually give them the excuse of it's their way to let some steam off.
But sadly this trap usually hides the real ones, the ones that the same people tolerate silently.

 

[Astoneroad]

"Sticks to his guns" is a long time "value" to be thrown away easily, along with "men don't cry, etc, etc.
Is more than a mental state when you grow up like that, it's a soul tattoo that can't be lasered off.

I just thought of an example of value rigidity that I actually admire... Socrates. If you know the story of his demise, as told by Plato, he asks for free lunch for life, as his sentence for his "crimes"... then kicked his accusers from the room as he sipped hemlock, rather than worship the local gods. I'm not doing Plato or Socrates justice here... but you get the picture... lol. He made a choice to hold onto the rice rather than pay $5k for an underperforming Dac.

Which one of these guys is Amir? (I think it's the surly guy in the center foreground)

 

[Blumlein 88]

I just thought of an example of value rigidity that I actually admire... Socrates. If you know the story of his demise, as told by Plato, he asks for free lunch for life, as his sentence for his "crimes"... then kicked his accusers from the room as he sipped hemlock, rather than worship the local gods. I'm not doing Plato or Socrates justice here... but you get the picture... lol. He made a choice to hold onto the rice rather than pay $5k for an underperforming Dac.

Who made the better choice Socrates or Galileo?

 

[Astoneroad]

Who made the better choice Socrates or Galileo?

Socrates. Galileo got screwed and put under house arrest for life.... by his childhood friend, later patron and later still... Pope Urban. He had the last laugh though... his middle finger is still on display at the Galileo Museum in Florence. I guess both Socrates and Galileo died for their heretical rigidity. Sometimes it feels like all the subjectivists are at the ASR door with torches and pitchforks... coming for us all.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Socrates. Galileo got screwed and put under house arrest for life.... by his childhood friend, later patron and later still... Pope Urban. He had the last laugh though... his middle finger is still on display at the Galileo Museum in Florence. I guess both Socrates and Galileo died for their heretical rigidity. Sometimes it feels like all the subjectivists are at the ASR door with torches and pitchforks... coming for us all.

View attachment 436783

One was put to death, and one died of natural causes.

 

[Astoneroad]

One was put to death, and one died of natural causes.

True... but one chose to die over recanting... and the other was silenced and died under arrest and not allowed to ever publish again I don't think he had a choice... as I recall. When the feast is over... sometimes ya just gotta pick your poison... lol. How would you respond, Socrates or Galileo?

 

[Blumlein 88]

True... but one chose to die over recanting... and the other was silenced and died under arrest and not allowed to ever publish again I don't think he had a choice... as I recall. When the feast is over... sometimes ya just gotta pick your poison... lol. How would you respond, Socrates or Galileo?

I am not sure how I would respond. Was interesting in hearing someone else's opinion for that reason. Sometimes Socrates death is used as if being admirable and sometimes as if it was cowardice. Hopefully he made the right choice for himself. His option was a relatively serene death. Galileo probably didn't have that option actually.

 

[Astoneroad]

I am not sure how I would respond. Was interesting in hearing someone else's opinion for that reason. Sometimes Socrates death is used as if being admirable and sometimes as if it was cowardice. Hopefully he made the right choice for himself. His option was a relatively serene death. Galileo probably didn't have that option actually.

After all... it's the story of his death as told by his student. I'm not sure if there is any other historical account of him from a contemporary source and not a word of his own. So... I guess that we project onto his death our own value rigidity of admiration or contempt. I'm a big proponent of pushing away from the table after the meal is over... so I'm in the admirable camp.

Galileo vs. Urban is an example of your previous statement, "So value is usually going to defend itself. If something has substantial value in one's mind, it isn't going to be discarded. The most sacredly held values resist the most." The scientists always lost these battles... fighting the good fight... imo. I know who's camp I'd rather be in between them... while my middle fingers are still supple... lol.

 

[Astoneroad]

"Sticks to his guns" is a long time "value" to be thrown away easily, along with "men don't cry, etc,

What about "ignorance is bliss"? Is this value rigidity? What about the music lover / non engineer amongst us that adds dual subs to his formerly 2.0. Sets them up, sits in his spot, turns on his favorite tracks... and loves the new sound... no sub mgmt., or EQ. He knows that he should run measurements, which lead to deep diving a complex technical process (with no end in sight... lol).

He chooses to not change a thing, knowing the benefits, yet valuing his blissful ignorance and quality of time spent listening rather than analyzing. Here's the rigidity question... he doesn't defend his ignorance... he admits it... and respects the value of sub mgmt... but less so than the value of his time.

I see this as prioritizing value, subject to change, rather than rigidity. Oddly... I think that we see less of this in those "true believer" threads previously mentioned. That digging in your heels (stick to your guns) nonsense baffles me.

"I know that I know nothing" - Socrates
"Duh" - me

 

[Sokel]

What about "ignorance is bliss"? Is this value rigidity? What about the music lover / non engineer amongst us that adds dual subs to his formerly 2.0. Sets them up, sits in his spot, turns on his favorite tracks... and loves the new sound... no sub mgmt., or EQ. He knows that he should run measurements, which lead to deep diving a complex technical process (with no end in sight... lol).

He chooses to not change a thing, knowing the benefits, yet valuing his blissful ignorance and quality of time spent listening rather than analyzing. Here's the rigidity question... he doesn't defend his ignorance... he admits it... and respects the value of sub mgmt... but less so than the value of his time.

I see this as prioritizing value, subject to change, rather than rigidity. Oddly... I think that we see less of this in those "true believer" threads previously mentioned. That digging in your heels (stick to your guns) nonsense baffles me.

"I know that I know nothing" - Socrates
"Duh" - me

Ignorance can be bliss, of course it can.
Deliberate ignorance though can be either wisdom or reality avoidance (or both)

I have two examples, one is an old musician who uses a pair of VERY old speakers with burned tweeters and the treble tone control to max.
He knows his stuff, just chooses to stay there as long as he can cry with the performance.

The other is non audio, it's me. My wife once told me that I can sure cheat on her as long as I'm smart enough to completely hide it.
(although the above is only a trick, no one is so smart )

 

[Astoneroad]

Ignorance can be bliss, of course it can.
Deliberate ignorance though can be either wisdom or reality avoidance (or both)

I've mentioned my long term reclusively... so reality avoidance is a chosen way of life. As to wisdom... it's like the difference between someone who plays music and someone who is a musician... a rarity... but they both know the difference... no? I'm "rigidly" in the Socratic camp of knowing nothing... if I waiver... I watch a Feynman vid and I'm reminded that "nothing" was giving myself too much credit... lol.

 

[Sokel]

I've mentioned my long term reclusively... so reality avoidance is a chosen way of life. As to wisdom... it's like the difference between someone who plays music and someone who is a musician... a rarity... but they both know the difference... no? I'm "rigidly" in the Socratic camp of knowing nothing... if I waiver... I watch a Feynman vid and I'm reminded that "nothing" was giving myself too much credit... lol.

I'm firmly at the same camp too, to the death. And I consider his way to go true to his previous life: a choice of his own.
There are worst ways to live than his way to die

(I'm sure the above will not translate well)

 

[Astoneroad]

I'm firmly at the same camp too, to the death. And I consider his way to go true to his previous life: a choice of his own.
There are worst ways to live than his way to die

(I'm sure the above will not translate well)

It translated perfectly.