Using TV as center channel speaker ?

[Chromatischism]

They would need to provide some rationale for their disagreement. Typical centre channels are a horizontal MTM with awful horizontal dispersion, poor power handling, and no useful bass. You can see this in many many reviews here and by Erin.

So according to the evidence, adding a centre channel to a 2.1 setup usually makes the experience worse from a power handling and dispersion perspective, and adds nothing to the bass response. I am talking about typical consumer setups here, not professionally designed home theatres.

But it’s worse than that! When a centre channel is in use, the AVR routes nearly all dialogue and main soundtrack to it. So these quality failings are amplified, and the (presumably good quality) L&R speakers are relegated to effects duty.

I agree and stuck with phantom center for years before figuring out my current solution which sounds great.

 

[dped90]

Like I said, you are arguing against the use of crappy center channels. A good center channel, and it most certainly does not need to be identical to the L+R, is absolutely better than a phantom center...even good MTM are better than no center in a lot of use cases.

Except there is, it’s called not having a centre speaker!

I have this capability on my 77-A80K, but even though the speakers are pretty good for a TV (not speakers but actuators behind the panel), I think you'll notice something lacking if you're running some decent speakers like many people here. It would probably blend in best with a small satellite system.

Ultimately, if we want the best sound, we have to look past the paradigm of having furniture up front.

View attachment 379648

My problem is that I want to place this 55 or 65" A95L (going nuts trying to decide, but leaning more to 55") to be essentially on axis with my line of sight when seated ~ 90 degrees in my living room, as I always had with my 32" Toshiba CRT TV in my bedroom. In both cases, will sit ~ 10 ft away.

The Sony A95L 55” is 29 1/8” high with stand https://electronics.sony.com/tv-video/televisions/all-tvs/p/xr55a95l

So, with reference to my 32” Toshiba CRT TV’s 20” high glass screen-above its 7” high plastic housing and atop the 14.5” high Toshiba stand which puts its screen’s center on-axis with my ~ 90 degrees seated gaze at 10 ft-the A95L on its stand needs to be elevated ~ 9.5” for its center to be on-axis with me. But that would force almost any decent (horizontal) center speaker to be put directly on the floor to avoid blocking the screen; not good I would think.

Searching [ center channel speaker above TV ] most users I’ve found say that a center channel speaker delivers content better if it's placed above the TV rather than below the screen. But evidently some of you don’t agree.

In any case my L+R floor standers are way too big to add a third one for center. However, I’ll have to check with Troy Crowe; hopefully my midrange driver/horn’s dispersion is wide enough to eliminate the need for a center speaker.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I just deleted the screen.

 

[dped90]

I just deleted the screen.

I have indeed thought about it! But as you may have surmised I've been much too long without a TV to properly view widescreen content, and many of my favorites on BD and even lossy DVD have content of good enough audio quality which I wouldn't want to pass on exploiting. Hasn't been a whole lot of fun this long journey.

 

[Chromatischism]

So, with reference to my 32” Toshiba CRT TV’s 20” high glass screen-above its 7” high plastic housing and atop the 14.5” high Toshiba stand which puts its screen’s center on-axis with my ~ 90 degrees seated gaze at 10 ft-the A95L on its stand needs to be elevated ~ 9.5” for its center to be on-axis with me. But that would force almost any decent (horizontal) center speaker to be put directly on the floor to avoid blocking the screen; not good I would think.

Referencing my picture above, my screen bottom is at 21" and the top is at 60", with the highest point of the center speaker at 24". My eyes are 32-36" from the floor sitting 9 feet back and the way the sight lines work the speaker hits exactly the bottom of the picture without any overlap. My front 15" vented sub just slides under the screen. As you can see I can't get my seated height to hit at the mid point of the screen so it's a small compromise to make everything work so well. I'd put my system up against just about any other as far as small rooms go.

I'm super picky about screens being too high but this is acceptable to me.

Searching [ center channel speaker above TV ] most users I’ve found say that a center channel speaker delivers content better if it's placed above the TV rather than below the screen. But evidently some of you don’t agree.

I would only put it above if that lines it up better with the L/R than putting it on the bottom. That's rarely the case unless your screen is really low, so I think you'll end up with sound way too high up on the wall, above the plane where the rest of your bed layer speakers are and closer to your height speakers. That's not good for separation.

 

[abdo123]

Might as well use a toilet brush as a dildo

 

[dped90]

I would only put it above if that lines it up better with the L/R than putting it on the bottom. That's rarely the case unless your screen is really low, so I think you'll end up with sound way too high up on the wall, above the plane where the rest of your bed layer speakers are and closer to your height speakers. That's not good for separation.

Exactly my intention all along, though I won’t know if the center speaker would have to be placed above or below the screen to ensure that until my speakers are built and delivered. But to do so, and being THE King of Bad Luck, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the screen will have to be placed either way too low to be watchable or so high that I’m craning my neck or I would have to end up sitting more than 10 ft away-thereby making the 55” screen look annoying small-to have the center speaker be reasonably on axis with the HF/MF drivers. Opting for a 65” may or may not make things worse as it’s ~ 3” taller than the 55”. Time will tell.

 

[rynberg]

So, with reference to my 32” Toshiba CRT TV’s 20” high glass screen-above its 7” high plastic housing and atop the 14.5” high Toshiba stand which puts its screen’s center on-axis with my ~ 90 degrees seated gaze at 10 ft-the A95L on its stand needs to be elevated ~ 9.5” for its center to be on-axis with me. But that would force almost any decent (horizontal) center speaker to be put directly on the floor to avoid blocking the screen; not good I would think.

Searching [ center channel speaker above TV ] most users I’ve found say that a center channel speaker delivers content better if it's placed above the TV rather than below the screen. But evidently some of you don’t agree.

I understand completely, I hate high-mounted displays. My Revel C208 center is placed on its dedicated stand on the floor to allow for my 65" display to be the "proper height".

On the other matter, there is nothing wrong with having the center above the display (I ran this setup for many years), other than it's a lot more difficult to safely support a heavy speaker to locate it properly. In the good old days of 24" deep rear projection CRTs, you could just put your center on top of the TV and aim it down slightly.

 

[Chromatischism]

to have the center speaker be reasonably on axis with the HF/MF drivers. Opting for a 65” may or may not make things worse as it’s ~ 3” taller than the 55”. Time will tell.

From my experience, don't obsess over lining up the front 3 sets of drivers. When watching my 77" in the setup I described, I completely forget there is a speaker at all. Your brain puts the sound on the screen where you are watching and you become immersed (when it's close enough and the quality is good enough so that there aren't any timbre issues that call attention to itself—so speaker selection is important as well).

 

[dped90]

From my experience, don't obsess over lining up the front 3 sets of drivers. When watching my 77" in the setup I described, I completely forget there is a speaker at all. Your brain puts the sound on the screen where you are watching and you become immersed (when it's close enough and the quality is good enough so that there aren't any timbre issues that call attention to itself—so speaker selection is important as well).

Yes, regarding center speaker placement, I think there's a good chance that I'll have the same experience IF Troy Crowe can design the center with much the same tonality as my main speakers. What worries me is what the lower frequency response of a center is normally supposed to be. I can't be positive but I think Troy mentioned that the B & C DCM50 midrange in the ES450 horn would cross with my sealed Altec 416-8B midwoofers at around 450Hz, hopefully even lower. Obviously, I'm hoping to avoid using a driver below that in a center speaker cabinet as the sound of the 15" (!!) Altec midwoofers are said to be something special-hopefully not too special for the sake of getting the sound of the center right.

I'm really not at all optimistic that there won't be mains/center tonality and/or frequency response issues, given these examples where the drivers all look the same.

Speaker System No.1697

By purchasing these plans you will automatically receive the PDF drawings required to built these home theater speakers. NEW! You can now purchase the component kit for this speaker! The kit includes all components to build three speakers for a Left/Center/Right home theater setup. Details...

josephcrowe.com

Speaker System No. 2015 --- 10" MTM with 1.4" Horn

By purchasing these plans you will automatically receive via email the required PDF assembly and detail drawings to construct these speakers. Also included is the passive crossover schematic with bill of materials and part numbers from Madisound. All components are from Madisound with the...

josephcrowe.com

 

[Chromatischism]

Will this system be equalized/room corrected?

 

[dasdoing]

I've said it before: If you place a center above AND below the screen you will have the sound coming from the middle of the screen. it will mess up the vertical but that shouldn't be an issue since your head should be in the same height anyways

 

[dped90]

Here's another of Troy's home theater builds; note the apparently identical drivers.
https://www.instagram.com/joseph_crowe_diy/p/CqWT_wQu8WD/ According to Paul McGowan, for home theater, since most of what you hear comes through (is mixed for) the center, you want the best center speaker you can find and afford plus a sub(s), while the quality of the mains is somewhat less important.

But in my case, my prebuilt sealed Altec midwoofers are too costly not to use to complete a pair of mains, so Troy would have to design a center to work the best with them.

 

[dped90]

Will this system be equalized/room corrected?

Yes, as all of my source material are digital and usually played via JRiver, I definitely hope to be able to apply DIRAC Live or other such room correction software. But while I could probably use my M-audio sound card with a USB mic to run measurements for determining which and how many acoustical materials to apply to the room prior to finishing up with DIRAC Live (though no hands on with any of this software so far), I’m completely torn over which 8 channel DAC will provide adequate output voltage to the balanced and unbalanced inputs of my amplifiers.

And while my main speakers’ ~ 93db SPL/w/m sensitivity may or may not obviate any room correction software imposed gain loss, this may not be so with the center speaker.

More on this later.

Meanwhile, your question seems to imply that using room correction software might impact my issues with using and/or placing a center speaker? If yes, how so?

 

[Chromatischism]

Meanwhile, your question seems to imply that using room correction software might impact my issues with using and/or placing a center speaker? If yes, how so?

Mostly out of concern for those drivers you're intent on using . They're an unknown quantity and will definitely need EQ to blend into a nice frequency response that gels with everything else.

 

[dped90]

Mostly out of concern for those drivers you're intent on using . They're an unknown quantity and will definitely need EQ to blend into a nice frequency response that gels with everything else.

I had hoped you were going to say something like if I can successfully employ software like DIRAC Live-and possibly aided by the ES450 horns, which have a rather wide sound stage-that I might not need a center speaker for movies.

Otherwise, not sure what potential problem you're describing. I doubt if you're talking about the "voicing" of the driver/horn combination, as Troy will implement that as part of the crossover build. Instead, would not practically any speaker/room combination need to be EQed? However, is that more true of the low frequencies, say below ~ 200Hz?

 

[flexy123]

Typical centre channels are a horizontal MTM with awful horizontal dispersion, poor power handling, and no useful bass. You can see this in many many reviews here and by Erin.

So according to the evidence, adding a centre channel to a 2.1 setup usually makes the experience worse from a power handling and dispersion perspective, and adds nothing to the bass response. I am talking about typical consumer setups here, not professionally designed home theatres.

But it’s worse than that! When a centre channel is in use, the AVR routes nearly all dialogue and main soundtrack to it. So these quality failings are amplified, and the (presumably good quality) L&R speakers are relegated to effects duty.

I am aware of the horizontal MTM issues, and only learned about them *after* I got my center.
You boldly stating that having no center would overall be better, I consider interesting. I will give this a try. I am currently the only one at the MLP, so the phase shift issues from poor MTM designs are not that apparent to me - but to be honest at this point I cannot say whether the center channel *added* something to my system, or whether without it would actually be better. I simply never even considered running the system without a center

As to the actual topic of this thread (using TV as center speaker), I *just* hacked a cable for my SONY A80L and my Marantz to use the TVs "Surface Audio" center speaker (via s-center in) in addition to the center from my sound system. I just tested it out, but not extensively yet. It might be an awful idea to do from an audiophile perspective, but this is not the intention, for listening to music I don't use a center.

But in my quick tests I found it intriguing since dialogue etc. is now really coming from the screen, and there is much added clarity. (I did quick measurements as well, with them BOTH active). I also previously had an issue that leaning back on the couch, there is a massive dip in treble, probably from reflections from the back. With this "hack", now with sound also coming from the screen, for movie watching, this could well be an improvement, also for immersion when dialogue is now coming from the screen. And the SONY built-in sound system seems actually "decent" if we're talking movie watching.

I am aware that incorporating the TV center into a sound system that is magnitudes better than any "built-in speakers" can even be is probably a "crazy" idea, but then again it's something fun to experiment with. I will test and also take up your tip to disable center and compare...

 

[dped90]

They would need to provide some rationale for their disagreement. Typical centre channels are a horizontal MTM with awful horizontal dispersion, poor power handling, and no useful bass. You can see this in many many reviews here and by Erin.

So according to the evidence, adding a centre channel to a 2.1 setup usually makes the experience worse from a power handling and dispersion perspective, and adds nothing to the bass response. I am talking about typical consumer setups here, not professionally designed home theatres.

But it’s worse than that! When a centre channel is in use, the AVR routes nearly all dialogue and main soundtrack to it. So these quality failings are amplified, and the (presumably good quality) L&R speakers are relegated to effects duty.

Regarding the Sony 65” A95L I’m looking to buy, I certainly wouldn’t be using it or any center channel speaker for music listening; only for movie sound. Of course, the “drivers” in the Sony TV are a poor substitute for a decent center speaker, though which are all the experts say should be identical to the drivers in my L/R speakers, but which they certainly won’t be. But as the “drivers” in the TV are vertically rather than horizontally aligned won’t that at least give way better HF, MF and upper bass dispersion than the horizontal drivers in most center speakers?

For DVD and BD movies, rather than an AVR, my plan would be to use a straight multichannel DAC, like the Merging Hapi or Okto MCH DAC 8 Pro, and a dedicated (Shiit or Topping) stereo power amp to drive the A95L’s speaker level inputs. Then use JRiver player to decode the Dolby Digital or DTS MA and configure the L/R speakers, Sony TV speaker system and my three Rythmik subs as a 3.3 system. But since center channel audio from the movie discs is mono, that is what JRiver will feed the Sony A95L has stereo speaker level inputs via one Okto DAC channel y-connected to the (e.g. Shiit or Topping) stereo power amp for driving the Sony TV’s stereo pair of speaker level inputs to act as one mono center speaker.

As for the apparent dipole like design of the Sony TV’s speaker system, as I will have the A95L on a floor standing VESA stand close to the rear wall, most of whatever bass response the speakers produce will be likely be canceled.But doesn’t JRiver have a crossover or filters so that any bass response that would have been mixed for the center speaker could be instead be shared between the L/R speakers and the subs?

 

[PGansz]

Mount the TV higher, sit higher, buy a center channel, and move further back from the TV.
Done.

IMO, you created the problem by buying too big of a TV and being a stickler on eye placement at the expense of sound. In reality moving the TV higher up won't really be that big of a deal, still look great, and you can enjoy great audio by getting a center channel like everyone else. This truly should not be an issue.

 

[dped90]

IMO, you created the problem by buying too big of a TV

Indeed, I've been torn between a 55 and 65" size. Question: What's you screen size and viewing distance?

and you can enjoy great audio by getting a center channel like everyone else.

Which are your main and center speakers?