Using inexpensive DVD player as transport for an external DAC

[Eirikur]

Link you provided doesn't prove it. I would like to see a case where non-broken SPDIF interfae caused audible jitter issues with any modern DAC.

It proves massive jitter from the source side is possible, doesn't it?
Whether this is audible or non-correctable - dunno. Indeed, it would be great to test this kind of massive jitter from a "normal" customer audio device with modern DACs and prove that it is properly corrected (or not!).

 

[Krunok]

It proves massive jitter from the source side is possible, doesn't it?

Jitter is not a parameter that describes SQ so as long as it doesn't prove it's audible it's pretty much useless.

 

[Wombat]

FWIW

CD Player

 

[Eirikur]

Jitter is not a parameter that describes SQ so as long as it doesn't prove it's audible it's pretty much useless.

Why are you so adamant that jitter is not a problem for SQ? Do you ever look into these things yourself or do you just dismiss everything out of hand unless it is accompanied by stacks of proof that you could have found doing a 30 second google search?

If jitter is retained in the DAC it is very much deteriorating SQ, as it puts the samples out of phase. The reconstructed analog signal will be different and especially the higher frequencies suffer - you should know that.

 

[Krunok]

Why are you so adamant that jitter is not a problem for SQ? Do you ever look into these things yourself or do you just dismiss everything out of hand unless it is accompanied by stacks of proof that you could have found doing a 30 second google search?

If jitter is retained in the DAC it is very much deteriorating SQ, as it puts the samples out of phase. The reconstructed analog signal will be different and especially the higher frequencies suffer - you should know that.

Because I have never seen a single proven case where jitter was to blame on SQ assuming interface and cables were fully functional. You also faileld to provide one. From that perspective suspecting jitter to have any influence on SQ would be the same as suspecting tidal changes caused by Moon to do the same.

 

[Frank Dernie]

There was much discussion years ago about the level jitter needs to get to before becoming audible. I don't know if anybody came up with a plausible value.
I have noted, though, that measurements done by HiFi News on jitter shows the Chord Dave, and expensive unit, to have state of the art jitter levels of 6 psec whilst the even more expensive Kalista Dreamplay has 1205 psec.
The Kallista other measurements were pretty dire too but it got a rave review from the subjective guy. perhaps because it looks good and is super expensive?

 

[Krunok]

There was much discussion years ago about the level jitter needs to get to before becoming audible. I don't know if anybody came up with a plausible value.
I have noted, though, that measurements done by HiFi News on jitter shows the Chord Dave, and expensive unit, to have state of the art jitter levels of 6 psec whilst the even more expensive Kalista Dreamplay has 1205 psec.
The Kallista other measurements were pretty dire too but it got a rave review from the subjective guy. perhaps because it looks good and is super expensive?

If you take a look at the AES jitter specs you would realise that those ps values are actually very low and well within specs. People, mostly those who don't have a clue about what jitter is and what would happen if it becomes the problem, talk about it but actually jitter is a non-issue in audio world.

http://www.hardwarebook.info/S/PDIF#Jitter_specifications_of_AES.2FEBU_interface
Jitter specifications of AES/EBU interface
The AES/EBU standard for serial digital audio uses typically 163 ns clock rate and allows up to -20 ns of jitter in the signal. This peaks to peak value of 40 ns is aroun 1/4 of the unit interval. D/A conversion clock jitter requirements are considerably tighter. A draft AES/EBU standard specifies the D/A converter clock at 1 ns jitter; however, a theoretical value for 16-bit audio could be as small as 0.1 nsec. Small jitter D/A conversion is implemented by using separate PLL clocks for data recover and DAC and by using a buffering between data recovery and DAC.

 

[AudioSceptic]

About 20 years ago a friend of mine thought about going into manufacture of hifi at the high end and thought the Goldmund high end stuff had the nicest enclosure because it was made from nicely finished ally plate bolted together rather than a cheap box with fancy faceplate. I have a Goldmund Mimesis preamp and got our machine shop to quote to make the case in a batch of 25.
The estimate was £7,500 each case. It may be cheaper now but there are a lot of expensive bits because of blind threaded holes.
Goldmund also put effort into mechanical grounding and their AC-Curator mains filtering circuit both of which will almost certainly be incorporated.
Now I would not expect the casing quality or, probably, mechanical grounding to effect performance. Mains filtering may but should be included anyway.
The Pioneer players had state of the art performance anyway so whilst Lampizator feigns outrage and it is not worth the extra for the casing in terms of sound or vision at least I can see where the money went, which is more than can be said for any of Lampizator's products!

Just curious (and off topic), but what would you estimate the cost of Linn's Klimax DS and amp cases to be?

 

[Eirikur]

There was much discussion years ago about the level jitter needs to get to before becoming audible. I don't know if anybody came up with a plausible value.

This quote from the stereophile article I linked gives some direction for a lower bound of measurable:

... indicates that 16-bit data jitter of any kind needs to be less than 200ps or so if it is not to produce measurable effects in the analog signal ... the crystal clock in the CD player or the PLL in the processor that do that reclocking need to hold their word-to-word timing accuracy to better than 10 parts in a million. And that time precision needs to be preserved during the digital data's travails on its way to the DAC, something that in my opinion is, frankly, unlikely.

So, interestingly, the Kalista Dreamplay you mentioned is well above this number while the Chord Dave is an order of magnitude below.

There are also a couple of articles here on ASR: digital-audio-jitter-fundamentals and part-2.

 

[Krunok]

This quote from the stereophile article I linked gives some direction for a lower bound of measurable:

That is not based on a real measurement but a simulation which doesn't take into account reclocking which all modern DACs do.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Just curious (and off topic), but what would you estimate the cost of Linn's Klimax DS and amp cases to be?

I am not the manufacturing guy, but with modern CNC machines will be able to machine cases a fair bit less expensive than the Goldmund way of multiple pieces bolted together into blind holes, the most expensive thing to machine is a blind tapped hole, and the Goldmund design was full of them.
The Linn Klimax stuff is beautifully finished.
I was told the most expensive parts of an amplifier were the power transformer and the casing.

 

[Frank Dernie]

That is not absed on a real measurement but a simulation which doesn't take into account reclocking which all modern DACs do.

The numbers I quoted were for the DACs, not transports.

 

[Julf]

I was told the most expensive parts of an amplifier were the power transformer and the casing.

Casing definitely. Power transformers have become less of an issue with switch mode power supplies.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you want a high jitter source to test for audibility, you can get one of the HDMI switchers with Toslink out. I measured one here:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...er-ultrahd-hdmi-3x1-switcher.1560/#post-61147

Look at post #9 for results using the Toslink from such a device feeding a good quality DAC.

 

[AudioSceptic]

I am not the manufacturing guy, but with modern CNC machines will be able to machine cases a fair bit less expensive than the Goldmund way of multiple pieces bolted together into blind holes, the most expensive thing to machine is a blind tapped hole, and the Goldmund design was full of them.
The Linn Klimax stuff is beautifully finished.
I was told the most expensive parts of an amplifier were the power transformer and the casing.

Thanks.

 

[tmtomh]

When looking to buy a digital disc transport, I would say the primary sound quality issue is not the quality of the digital output - any competently designed unit in proper working order will output a digital stream that can be accurately decoded by any competently designed DAC.

IMHO, the main sound-quality issue is mechanical and electrical noise: Does the unit emit a faint hum or buzz from a noisy internal power transformer or its front-panel display circuitry, or is it dead-quiet (or at least quiet enough that you can't hear any noise from your normal listening position)? Most units will be sufficiently quiet, but you'd be surprised how many of them do emit some electrical/electronic noise when you get close to them, and in a quiet listening room when you're hearing the silence between songs, it can potentially be audible. (Note that I'm NOT saying this noise contaminates the digital stream - I'm talking about noise physically coming from the player).

Similarly, how noisy or quiet is the disc mechanism when it's playing a disc? Some DVD and Blu-Ray players can be a little noisier than a CD-only player when spinning a CD - again, not all, and not necessarily a problem, but something to keep in mind, and if it is noticeable, it's liable to degrade your listening experience a lot more than an alleged subtle difference between digital transports that can't be confirmed in a proper A/B test.

Beyond the unit's electrical and operating noise (if any), there's reliability, specifically, does the brand or the model have a laser mechanism that's known to die prematurely? If so, either stay away from it or be okay with having to buy a new mechanism off eBay at some point, or just buying a new player down the road.

Finally, as noted above, life will be much simpler if the disc player/transport has a digital output connector that matches the input of your DAC - if your DAC lacks HDMI (and most do lack it), and the disc transport only has HDMI output, just get a different disc transport - not worth the hassle of conversion IMHO.

None of the above is meant to fear-monger - there are tons of great options out there if all you need is a disc transport.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Sure Sony Bluray players are not very expensive and still have a coax digital output.

 

[digicidal]

I think some of the cheapest Sony players might not (the $50 walmart ones), but @Blumlein 88 is correct that most still do.
The Sony UBP-X800 would work as a universal disc player, streamer, etc. It can decode almost every common A/V file format (via LAN/Wifi/USB/optical media) and according to users on a few Bluray forums, is silent in operation (subjective opinions worth about $0.02 at most).

Forgot... it's also BT enabled... though possibly only as an output.

 

[Sal1950]

I think some of the cheapest Sony players might not (the $50 walmart ones), but @Blumlein 88 is correct that most still do.
The Sony UBP-X800 would work as a universal disc player, streamer, etc. It can decode almost every common A/V file format (via LAN/Wifi/USB/optical media) and according to users on a few Bluray forums, is silent in operation (subjective opinions worth about $0.02 at most).

Forgot... it's also BT enabled... though possibly only as an output.

I just recently purchased the new X800M2. Must say I was impressed when I first picked it up at the near 9 lb weight, don't know if they put a brick inside or it may have a quality drive? Anyway it does run very quietly and overall shows a much higher level of build quality than the half its weight 4.2 lb Samsung UBD-K8500 it replaced. Maybe someone familiar with drives can ID the one inside it. Got it on sale at Best Buy for $249.

 

[digicidal]

Considering it's Sony... I would have to assume it's one of their own drives... but that would be an assumption on my part so ~50% likelihood of being incorrect. At least on features, it seems to be a fairly decent Oppo-203 replacement... I might consider selling one of mine (since I could buy 6 of these Sony units for what the going rate on ebay is for the 203 at the moment).

Found this rather amusing:

Want to dance around to your Super Audio CD collection? No problem. If it’s a disc, the UBP-X800M2 will almost certainly be able to play it.

I like to think that "almost" is a sarcastic jab at those who foolishly supported the HD-DVD standard early on. Although it was probably drafted by marketing people that have no idea one way or another actually.