• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Using DSP crossover speakers for both 2-ch music and home theatre

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
2,095
Likes
1,133
Hi all

For 2-ch music I have DIY 2-way DSP speakers , multichannel D to A handled by Motu interface, multichannel amplification using "EXT IN" analogue inputs of my Denon AVR.

Works great for music.

I'd like to bring these speakers into living room with Home Theatre setup, using various HDMI sources and total 7.2 channel setup, using these DSP speakers as Front Left and Front Right for TV and movies.

Problem is the Denon AVR can't be configured to manage the DSP crossover. I use Atmos too.

Any solutions to this problem?

I can only think I'll need a box with crossover in it, with a switch to by-pass this crossover. By-pass with 2-ch music where I use software DSP crossover.

Any advice appreciated

I can't afford a Storm Audio processor that can literally do it all :)
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,579
Likes
2,534
Location
Finland
Hi, this is how I do it (diy 4-way actives with minidsp)

1) You must buy two stereo power-amps for your speakers ( closet/flea-market finds or up to diy Purifi kit)
2) take 2ch signal for Motu from AVR using toslink or EXT L/R RCA-out (Line out has fixed voltage) Notice all AVR nowdays don't have EXT out at all!
3) use new power-amps between Motu and speakers
4) go to AVR's setup and set speaker settings - disable main L/R, set volumes per channel, delay/distance (or use automatic settings with test mic)
- Motu adds processing delay, so all other speakers must have longer distance!
- set subwoofer settings as you like, if you have those ( do the mains go low?)
5) listen to it carefullly with mono. stereo, upmixed (Dolby Pro Logic II) and real multich source. Fine-tune settings!
- mono source is a good test to check polarity match!

Now you can enjoy your diy actives with any source connected to AVR and be happy :)
 
OP
M

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
2,095
Likes
1,133
2) take 2ch signal for Motu from AVR using toslink or EXT L/R RCA-out (Line out has fixed voltage)

Thanks @Juhazi

From the example you showed l don't understand where the DSP crossover fits.

At the moment it is handled by Roon for music.

So I think I need an external active crossover box.

Seems like miniDSP box is best option.

Is there a bypass option on the miniDSP for when I like to use Roon for music?
 

abdo123

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
4,770
Likes
4,291
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Thanks @Juhazi

From the example you showed l don't understand where the DSP crossover fits.

At the moment it is handled by Roon for music.

So I think I need an external active crossover box.

Seems like miniDSP box is best option.

Is there a bypass option on the miniDSP for when I like to use Roon for music?

Can you explain the scenario through which you want the miniDSP to be bypassed?
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,579
Likes
2,534
Location
Finland
Sorry, I understood that you use Motu as crossover! So you use a computer with Roon for xo and Motu only as multichannel dac?? I have zero experience with Roon, Jriver etc. modern soft - I like to do it the HARD way!

Minidsp 2x4HD is the choice for dsp that works as 2-way crossover for both L/R channels! (the one without HD is inferior outdated product!)
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/stereo-2-way-xover
 
Last edited:
OP
M

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
2,095
Likes
1,133
Sorry, I understood that you use Motu as crossover! So you use a compurer with Roon for xo and Motu only as multichannel dac?? I have zero experience with Roon, Jriver etc. modern soft - I like to do it the HARD way!

Minidsp 2x4HD is the choice for dsp that works as 2-way crossover for both L/R channels! (the one without HD is inferior outdated product!)
https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/stereo-2-way-xover

Correct, Motu only used for multichannel D to A
 
OP
M

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
2,095
Likes
1,133
Can you explain the scenario through which you want the miniDSP to be bypassed?

With Roon I am using 65k tap FIR filters for DSP crossover and room correction.

miniDSP would be limited in this regard, much less taps and IIR filters.

But if the miniDSP is the only option I will definitely consider.
 
OP
M

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
2,095
Likes
1,133
"the miniDSP 2x4 HD in the datasheet talks about 4096 taps. But this is the total number. For 4 channels you have 1024 taps each channel available. The frequency resolution of a 1024 taps filter @ 48 kHz samplerate is 48000/1024 = 46.875 Hz. So below 100 Hz there are just 2 frequency bins at 46.875 and 93.75 Hz. This clearly means that you have no control over the lower frequency range.

...on a PC you typically use 65,536 taps per channel which gives full low frequency control. Remember the primary purpose of DRC is to correct the low frequencies below Schroeder."

I've paraphrased @mitchco on another forum there (sorry mitch) but that's the gist why miniDSP would not be as effective as now for me, for music.

For tv and movies I woukd be happy for Denon's Audyssey to do its thing.

For music, I'm currently using 65k taps for each channel, including subs
 

abdo123

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
4,770
Likes
4,291
Location
Brussels, Belgium
"the miniDSP 2x4 HD in the datasheet talks about 4096 taps. But this is the total number. For 4 channels you have 1024 taps each channel available. The frequency resolution of a 1024 taps filter @ 48 kHz samplerate is 48000/1024 = 46.875 Hz. So below 100 Hz there are just 2 frequency bins at 46.875 and 93.75 Hz. This clearly means that you have no control over the lower frequency range.

...on a PC you typically use 65,536 taps per channel which gives full low frequency control. Remember the primary purpose of DRC is to correct the low frequencies below Schroeder."

I've paraphrased @mitchco on another forum there (sorry mitch) but that's the gist why miniDSP would not be as effective as now for me, for music.

For tv and movies I woukd be happy for Denon's Audyssey to do its thing.

For music, I'm currently using 65k taps for each channel, including subs

Dont use the MiniDSP for room correction, just use it for the Crossover. The way it’s meant to.

Let something else deal with the room.
 
OP
M

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
2,095
Likes
1,133
Dont use the MiniDSP for room correction, just use it for the Crossover. The way it’s meant to.

Let something else deal with the room.

Thanks, yeh I was thinking I can just let Roon continue with room correction and shift the crossover to miniDSP.

So I'd use AVR left and right PRE OUTS (RCA) and subwoofers into miniDSP crossover. USB also feeds the miniDSP crossover, from PC (Roon).

Then RCA from miniDSP to power amps, to DSP speakers.

I think that's how it would connect?

Audyssey would correct for home theater acoustics and Roon handle 2-ch music playback.

How would I switch between USB and analogue input of miniDSP?
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,579
Likes
2,534
Location
Finland
I have no idea about taps (FIR), I use only parametric eq on minidsp 2x4HD, Minidsp 4x10HD and Hypex FA

My guts feeling is that you can do basic eq of each driver and xo slopes with parametrics, then try FIR for impulse control and room EQ.
I don't know if using parametric eats out FIR taps?

I have noticed tha many people use far too many room response corrections with FIR (just because that's possible) in Dirac, JRiver, Roon etc. We must remember that these are ok mostly for just one 3D spot in the room! Bass mode peak taming is more universal and reasonable IMO.
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,579
Likes
2,534
Location
Finland
Thanks, yeh I was thinking I can just let Roon continue with room correction and shift the crossover to miniDSP.

So I'd use AVR left and right PRE OUTS (RCA) and subwoofers into miniDSP crossover. USB also feeds the miniDSP crossover, from PC (Roon).

Then RCA from miniDSP to power amps, to DSP speakers.

I think that's how it would connect?

Audyssey would correct for home theater acoustics and Roon handle 2-ch music playback.

How would I switch between USB and analogue input of miniDSP?

Minidsp 2x4HD has only four channels out - you can do 2-way crossover between sub(s) and speakers or a pair of 2-way speakers with it.

Minidsp automatically detects signal in USB or RCA (or perhaps has both open all the time?) But when do you need USB signal if you use RCA from AVR and use it as preamp/source selector?

Please now take time to digest all this, draw a route map perhaps? I don't quite follow everything you say about using this and that for this and that! I think you are making this too difficult now. The OP post I understood that you specifically want to use AVR as preamp/"router" for all sources including Roon (pc), and to have same speakers and wires connected all the time.

What do you mean with DSP speakers? Main L/R?
 
OP
M

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
2,095
Likes
1,133
Minidsp 2x4HD has only four channels out - you can do 2-way crossover between sub(s) and speakers or a pair of 2-way speakers with it.

Minidsp automatically detects signal in USB or RCA (or perhaps has both open all the time?) But when do you need USB signal if you use RCA from AVR and use it as preamp/source selector?

I think 10x10HD is better suited to me the more I think. Comes with configurable IR remote

But i need to think more and draw diagram like you say

The two speakers have no crossover. They are DSP DIY speakers since the crossover is done via software at the moment.

650D3FA5-DC78-4ECA-AF03-2D51ADC18C10.jpeg
 
Top Bottom