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Using ASIO with Amazon HD ... a partial solution?

diyaudnut

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JanesJr1 my experience doesn't seem to match what you described. I'm using a win7 computer if that might have something to do with it.
I will check again.
Thanks.
 
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JanesJr1

JanesJr1

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Sorry it doesn't work.... I'm not tech-y enough to help. I just play around with things until they work, but don't understand how they work with much detail. Good luck.
 
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JanesJr1

JanesJr1

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JanesJr1 my experience doesn't seem to match what you described. I'm using a win7 computer if that might have something to do with it.
I will check again.
Thanks.
DIYAUDNUT I have another possible solution for your effort to implement "Ultra-HD" playback on Amazon Music HD without upsampling or downsampling. I haven't tried this in Windows 7, but maybe it will work for you.

1. Refer to my earlier post where I enable wasapi exclusive mode by modifying the Windows Sound advanced properties for your playback device, and by enabling exclusive mode in Amazon Music HD in the settings. Undo all that if you still have it enabled.

2. In the Settings/Sound/Device Properties/Additional Device Properties/Advanced tab, make sure that the shared-mode bit depth/sampling ceiling is set at a an "ultra HD" level like 24/96 or 24/192. (In Windows 7, you probably have to find that setting in the Control Panel/Sound settings instead.)

3. In Amazon Music HD Settings (click round icon with head profile) set "Audio Quality" at "HD/Ultra HD". If "Download Quality" isn't also set at "Best Available", switch that on, too.

I find that this works for me. Without enabling exclusive mode, Amazon switches to the native bit/sampling rate of the music, up to the ceiling set in Windows Sound in step 2 above. No exclusive mode toggling with each listening session is required.

This did NOT work with Amazon's default settings, and I believe that changing Audio Quality to HD/Ultra HD, after also having set the Windows Sound shared-mode ceiling to 24/192, is what enabled the change. The default Audio Quality setting allowed HD playback, but modulated the playback resolution based on network speed, and I often listen on a network that is at-best medium speed, and often use a VPN, which may slow things down more. However, despite those network limitations, Amazon HD seems to work well now with HD audio playback enforced. I also had not raised the Windows shared-mode ceiling originally, and that would also have kiboshed Ultra HD playback.

If this also works for you, one of the ostensible disadvantages of NOT enabling exclusive mode is interruption by other apps using Windows audio (e.g. notifications or phone calls or other streams). This may be the case, but I have already silenced a lot of that and it is not a bother for me. Another ostensible disadvantage is the supposed technical audio limitations of other Windows audio APO's or due to upsampling or downsampling. However, I don't see any evidence of upsampling with my Amazon stream, because the source/playback rates seem to match in the HD realm (at least up to my ceiling of 24/192, which embraces everything available on Amazon HD as either "HD" or "ultra-HD"). Second, some of the supposed disadvantages of the Windows audio mixer are either ephemeral or can be mitigated pretty easily, and I refer you again to https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nding-the-windows-audio-quality-debate.19438/ on this webiste, "Ending the Windows Audio Quality Debate".* (I'm sure no expert, but it's well put and seems authoritative!)

*That said, I note that the evaluation of the Windows Audio mixer in that other forum posting mentions that things have improved since 2015, perhaps raising the possibility that your Win 7 version may have some problems. I don't know, but you must have some very strong attachment to Win 7 to have stuck with it for an extra decade. Without judging that, I will just mention that I have used Windows 10 for a long time with very few problems. (I also found the complaints about Windows 8 were overblown, since that version of the OS was very stable, and because the changes to the user interface that bothered people could be completely mitigated in 5 minutes by downloading a utility program that cost less than $5.) Anyway, with the Microsoft support for Win 7 expiring, perhaps you can incidentally modernize your streaming-audio capabilities by upgrading Windows, even if you're forced into it by MSFT. Good luck!
 
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toby00

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@JanesJr1 - Looks like I've ended up in the same place as you.. I posted a reply to your Amazon Forum post which I'll screenshot here too.
Amazon Music HD is still 'upsampling' to match the Windows 10 Sound settings. I can't confirm the rate as my DAC doesn't display a rate only a red light for any output over 48 kHz. If I play a 44.1 kHz track in Amazon Music HD, the red light on my DAC goes on and it shouldn't.
If I play the same track with the same settings in Qobuz (or Roon), the light stays blue showing output is less than 48 kHz, which is correct.

Also, try the Sennheiser HD 600 if you are disappointed with the HD6XX's. I haven't tried the 6XX's but I bet you won't be disappointed with the HD 600's. I've had many, many headphones over the years and these are the most neutral I have found so far. Yes, they are open back so external sound will filter in but they sound divine. YMMV.


Exclusive Mode Amazon not working.jpg
 

toby00

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Switch to Qobuz, problem solved. Better supported on various streaming platforms too.
I am now using Qobuz via Roon since finding out that Amazon isn't outputting correctly. I'll pretend that I can hear the difference :). The UI of Roon is much nicer too. It's such a shame that I can't have Qobuz Hi Res AND listen to other sources without having to quit Qobuz.
 

gvl

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I'm actually waiting for Spotify lossless and them supporting Wasapi. The former is coming apparently, the latter who knows, they've been ignoring this feature for years.
 

toby00

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I'm actually waiting for Spotify lossless and them supporting Wasapi. The former is coming apparently, the latter who knows, they've been ignoring this feature for years.
Spotify Lossless would be amazing and would win me back too, Roon or not.. I've been waiting for that for years..
 

Mikett

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@JanesJr1 - Looks like I've ended up in the same place as you.. I posted a reply to your Amazon Forum post which I'll screenshot here too.
Amazon Music HD is still 'upsampling' to match the Windows 10 Sound settings. I can't confirm the rate as my DAC doesn't display a rate only a red light for any output over 48 kHz. If I play a 44.1 kHz track in Amazon Music HD, the red light on my DAC goes on and it shouldn't.
If I play the same track with the same settings in Qobuz (or Roon), the light stays blue showing output is less than 48 kHz, which is correct.

Also, try the Sennheiser HD 600 if you are disappointed with the HD6XX's. I haven't tried the 6XX's but I bet you won't be disappointed with the HD 600's. I've had many, many headphones over the years and these are the most neutral I have found so far. Yes, they are open back so external sound will filter in but they sound divine. YMMV.


View attachment 149321

Well I have played with this aspect on two different DACS which most people have not been able to and with both those DACS the behavior is different.

On the TOPPING D90SE with USB, the DAC will autoswitch to match the track quality offered by Amazon. I might add that most of the tracks I compared against TIDAL with and without MQA, Amazon Music UHD beats TIDAL with a fair amount of ease and is perceptible. The only issue is that each time you start a session with the Amazon app, you must enable the exclusive and it is automatic. However once it is enabled it sticks until the Amazon App closes. Essentially the Amazon app is not aggressive enough.

Now I have a second DAC that is using a XING ASM3176 USB adapter. With this adapter the behavior is as you experienced. Once a bit depth and sample rate is set in the windows properties of the driver. It sticks and needs to be manually changed to match the native track quality otherwise all tracks, once set is upsampled/downsampled etc. by the USB adapter. Now this same adapter needs no nudging when TIDAL is used as it switches automatically.

At this point I am unable to clearly say that Amazon Music app is improperly coded or whether the USB adapter is not responding to a certain flag etc. sent by the Amazon app.? For some reason, Amazon does not want to boldly take control of the exclusive mode for some reason. maybe they will modify this aspect.

When one hears the possible quality once everything is set up properly, the omission is acceptable on the first DAC, on the second DAC, since it is mainly for the office, I'll live with the issue at this time. I will pull out my Khadas tone board and see how that responds. That might shed more light on the situation.
 

Mikett

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Further testing with Foobar indicates Foobar can fully control the sample rate with any DAC. However Groove Music by Microsoft themselves have a similar behavior to Amazon Music HD . Maybe there is a library of functions that both Amazon and Groove is using which is unable to control the WASAPI or Tidal and others are stepping outside of the standard conventions a bit to get it to do its thing.
Now seeing that the TOPPING DAC be controlled properly to a large degree, also indicates that maybe standards are evolving.
This needs to be sorted out by the industry and developers. There is a mismatch of software, firmware and the calls to the device.
 
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JanesJr1

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Well I have played with this aspect on two different DACS which most people have not been able to and with both those DACS the behavior is different.

On the TOPPING D90SE with USB, the DAC will autoswitch to match the track quality offered by Amazon. I might add that most of the tracks I compared against TIDAL with and without MQA, Amazon Music UHD beats TIDAL with a fair amount of ease and is perceptible. The only issue is that each time you start a session with the Amazon app, you must enable the exclusive and it is automatic. However once it is enabled it sticks until the Amazon App closes. Essentially the Amazon app is not aggressive enough.

Now I have a second DAC that is using a XING ASM3176 USB adapter. With this adapter the behavior is as you experienced. Once a bit depth and sample rate is set in the windows properties of the driver. It sticks and needs to be manually changed to match the native track quality otherwise all tracks, once set is upsampled/downsampled etc. by the USB adapter. Now this same adapter needs no nudging when TIDAL is used as it switches automatically.

At this point I am unable to clearly say that Amazon Music app is improperly coded or whether the USB adapter is not responding to a certain flag etc. sent by the Amazon app.? For some reason, Amazon does not want to boldly take control of the exclusive mode for some reason. maybe they will modify this aspect.

When one hears the possible quality once everything is set up properly, the omission is acceptable on the first DAC, on the second DAC, since it is mainly for the office, I'll live with the issue at this time. I will pull out my Khadas tone board and see how that responds. That might shed more light on the situation.
Everyone else has convinced me that Amazon HD doesn't actually play back at the Track Quality resolution even when it seems to say so, unless the Windows audio setting happens to be the same. Semantics may be partly at fault, but it's still mostly deceptive.

I've also decided, meh, so what? HD audio at any lossless resolution sounds the same or very close to it. If I'm paying attention closely enough to detect those differences, I'm probably not really listening to the music but to the equipment, which is at least a little dysfunctional, even though I'm prey to the behavior often enough.
 
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JanesJr1

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@JanesJr1 - Looks like I've ended up in the same place as you.. I posted a reply to your Amazon Forum post which I'll screenshot here too.
Amazon Music HD is still 'upsampling' to match the Windows 10 Sound settings. I can't confirm the rate as my DAC doesn't display a rate only a red light for any output over 48 kHz. If I play a 44.1 kHz track in Amazon Music HD, the red light on my DAC goes on and it shouldn't.
If I play the same track with the same settings in Qobuz (or Roon), the light stays blue showing output is less than 48 kHz, which is correct.

Also, try the Sennheiser HD 600 if you are disappointed with the HD6XX's. I haven't tried the 6XX's but I bet you won't be disappointed with the HD 600's. I've had many, many headphones over the years and these are the most neutral I have found so far. Yes, they are open back so external sound will filter in but they sound divine. YMMV.


View attachment 149321
Sorry I didn't respond to your August post; I was out of circulation for a while. To wit: thanks for the HD600 idea.

I've APO-equalized my HD6XX's to a fair-thee-well, and have mostly resolved the lack of air in the high's, decreased the veiled detail a bit, tightened up the slightly viscous lower mids, and gave a little shelving to the lower/mid bass. I WANT to like the HD6XX's, they're a friendly package. But the bass never sounds right to me. It's only partly the extension; it just doesn't sound well-controlled, and with the wrong material can it can sound a little muddy or woolly.

The real problem is that my mobile setup involves Ety ER4's, and switching back and forth with the HD6XX's always showcases the better mid/treble detail and the better extension and bass-control on the Ety's. I had to equalize the Ety's, too, but tweaks there just worked better. For example, I tried Amir's recommendation to equalize the bass extension lower on the HD6XX's (actually the HD650's for Amir) with a double shelf and a big boost in the lower frequencies, in spite of higher distortion. It just sounded awful to me and I backed way off on the bass boost; I was able to boost the ER4's somewhat weak bass extension with much more success.

I'm feeling a little burned by Sennheiser; the HD6XX's just may be better for others than for me. I wish I could listen first.
 

garbz

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I've APO-equalized my HD6XX's to a fair-thee-well
Just so you know, any application using WASAPI exclusive mode or ASIO will bypass all APOs setup in Windows, including your EQ.
 
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JanesJr1

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Just so you know, any application using WASAPI exclusive mode or ASIO will bypass all APOs setup in Windows, including your EQ.
Thanks. I find that Equalizer APO is much more valuable than exclusive mode to me. I have tamed the frequency response irritants in my ER4's, and to a lesser degree, in my HD6XX's and still enjoy those changes every day. I can't hear any benefit from exclusive mode in practice, other than pre-empting the occasional interruption from Windows notifications, which I mostly turned off anyway.
 

garbz

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I can't hear any benefit from exclusive mode in practice
And you really shouldn't. Windows volume mixer works with 32bit floating point precision, the windows audio resampler has been measured as being completely transparent, so while the result of using shared mode or a higher level API is not "bit perfect" it shouldn't actually be bad either, not unless some APO is messing with the sound.
I too run any app I can't setup a DSP in Shared mode. The correction is more important that some claim to purity.
 

brenomirisola

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Then Amazon does autoswitch, but only if the default Windows rate is set at least at that resolution. Amazon takes that rate as the device's maximum capability. So if you set it to 24/192 for the Windows default rate and play back a 24/96 ultra-hd recording, Amazon does auto-switch up to 24/96 and does NOT oversample. However, if you play a 24/96 recording while Windows default is set at 16/44.1, then Windows does seem to downsample down to the 16/44.1 device limit.

This means I should change the advice on my 3 steps to set up wasapi exclusive on Amazon HD Music to provide for a max sampling rate of something like 24/192, and then autoswitch will work correctly, So I will edit my earlier posting.

(Lest it go unsaid, I'm not entirely sure that going above 24/44.1 is all that audible without focusing attention on equipment rather than the music and doing A/B testing and so forth. If it is just-barely-audible, is it really both audible and an improvement in normal use?)
Hello, I'm a TIDAL user and started to try Amazon Music. I have a Micro iFI DAC that has its own driver. I followed all the steps you posted but my DAC does not switch the resolution. It keeps the resolution I left on windows control panel!! And on TIDAL it does switch when I'm using exlusive mode so I believe Amazon Music does not bypass windows, just prevents other sound from windows to bug us when exlusive mode is on!!
 
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JanesJr1

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Hello, I'm a TIDAL user and started to try Amazon Music. I have a Micro iFI DAC that has its own driver. I followed all the steps you posted but my DAC does not switch the resolution. It keeps the resolution I left on windows control panel!! And on TIDAL it does switch when I'm using exlusive mode so I believe Amazon Music does not bypass windows, just prevents other sound from windows to bug us when exlusive mode is on!!
 
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JanesJr1

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I agree (belatedly). Another helpful forum reader with more readout detail than my JDS Atom "Black Box" DAC or its ASIO software convinced me of it a while back. I correctly reported what I saw on Amazon, including switching, but I concluded that Amazon's telemetry was deceptive and lost in semantic artistry with the variables it was ostensibly reporting. I was surprised it was worth the trouble to them.

Anyway, after a lot of listening, I also concluded that, at least for me, there was no audible benefit related to more-than-lossless levels of resolution, nor for avoiding downsampling. I was dancing with angels on the head of a pin and it wasn't worth fretting about.

I like Amazon's catalog, and its $7.99/mo. price (for Prime members); the low price effectively helps pay for my Idagio classical-focus subscription, and is a nice help in a tech-world now addicted to the subscription model for everything. But am frustrated by the quirks of its search function and of its user-library display. This seems more worthwhile a thing to fret about with them.
 
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srrxr71

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I just wish it had a better suggestion engine. It is pretty good about showing related artists which makes it easy for me to find songs I like that I already know about. I would then have to manually explore their albums. It would have been perfect in a world before pandora.

However a more modern music suggestion engine that finds songs based on musical characteristics would be better. Apple Music (not known to have a great music suggestion engine) found songs that really hit the spot. Mostly stuff from artists I listen to but songs on their albums I haven’t listened to.

I like how it lets you click on the artist or album name and instantly navigate to them - much better than Apple Music in that regard.


The like and add to library buttons however are hidden in a menu. That changes when you allow it to create a playlist for you pandora style.

I think they need to put some more effort into the player and take ideas from pandora, Spotify, Apple Music etc.
 

DavidBarajas

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On the TOPPING D90SE with USB, the DAC will autoswitch to match the track quality offered by Amazon.
I have not been able to make it work with my D10s

d10s_40.png


, did you do anything special? I'm using the V5.30 driver and W10, but it never autoswitched with previous driver versions either.
 
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