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Using a smartphone with desktop dac amp

01890jp

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Hi all. This is my first post here.

I do most of my music listening in my living room at night when the girlfriend go to bed where the computer is so I don't need a mobile dac amp to use with my Samsung S7. I'm currently using my S7 with a fiio BTR5 with HD6xxs which sounds really good with a balanced cable but there's not enough power with the SE cable.I plan on trying some other harder to power headphones so I'd like to get a more powerful dac amp like the K5 pro or even an atom stack. Can I use my phone with these desktops with the otg cable that I'm currently using with the btr5?
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Vini darko

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Hi welcome. If I remember rightly the btr5 uses usbC. Don't think the jds , schiit , topping or smsl stuff has usbC. It's all stuck on usb micro or B. So you'd probably need to find a new wire or prehaps an adaptor.
 

Vini darko

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Just went and checked the fiio k5 is usb B so that would need a new wire too. Wish manufacturers would just use usbC , it's 2020 ffs :facepalm:
 

Berwhale

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Vini darko

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Screenshot_20201006-213617~2.png
 

Cahudson42

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Your btr5 has both a 2.5mm and a 3.5mm out, right? So you can take a simple $3 3.5mm to dual RCA cable, and directly feed a $100 desktop HP amp: Heresy, Atom, Liquid Spark .

Alternately, a dual 3.5mm male to 3.5mm male would let you follow the btr5 with a portable NX3s - about $70.

So while you can go USB OTG again with another DAC, you don't have too. Simply follow the btr5 with a more powerful amp.
 
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01890jp

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Your btr5 has both a 2.5mm and a 3.5mm out, right? So you can take a simple $3 3.5mm to dual RCA cable, and directly feed a $100 desktop HP amp: Heresy, Atom, Liquid Spark .

Alternately, a dual 3.5mm male to 3.5mm male would let you follow the btr5 with a portable NX3s - about $70.

So while you can go USB OTG again with another DAC, you don't have too. Simply follow the btr5 with a more powerful amp.

Ok I thought about that and the btr5 dac is pretty good but how about the btr5 amp coloring the sound? What would the ideal volume level coming out of the btr5 be going into say an atom?
 

Cahudson42

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What would the ideal volume level coming out of the btr5
Others please add in..I do not have a btr5. However, a often- recommended approach is to have the 'upstream' device - a btr5 in this case - close to max volume. One reason is - it is feeding a high impedance load when going to something like an atom. Current (and power) requirements on the btr5 are thus very low. And the relatively higher driving voltage gives you a nice volume range and SNR on the downstream higher power device.

Another technique is to minimize the volume on the upstream (btr5) device. Then max out the volume on the downstream device ,(atom). While playing something, gradually increase the the btr5 volume until you hit the max volume you would ever want.

You have now set a 'system Max' volume such that you should never damage your hearing, no matter whatever volume setting on the atom..
 
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01890jp

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Tempotec Sonata HD Pro for $40 on Amazon has the standard 2V DAC output. I've been using it as a DAC with my Atom amp for almost 2 months now. Works great.

It's the same as the HIDIZS S8. But different enclosure and branding. See the measurements

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dizs-s8-usb-c-headphone-adapter-review.10823/
Thanks for that. Forgive my ignorance but I'm assuming that the standard DAC output is 2 volts? Is there anyway to know what level to set my btr5 at for it to be outputting two volts through the 3.5 mm output?
 

raistlin65

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Thanks for that. Forgive my ignorance but I'm assuming that the standard DAC output is 2 volts? Is there anyway to know what level to set my btr5 at for it to be outputting two volts through the 3.5 mm output?

I don't know about the BTR5
 

Cahudson42

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Is there anyway to know what level to set my btr5 at for it to be outputting two volts through the 3.5 mm output?

If you wire up a 3.5mm male (or clip one off a defunct IEM) and have a multimeter, you can get a rough idea of voltage out. Connect the MM to common and one channel - left or right. If you have a 1000 ohm or so resistor connect it across the 2 connections. (This 'emulates' connecting an Amp. Some devices auto-range the output voltage depending on the sensed resistance/impedance). If you don't already have a Signal Generator app, get one. Here is an android one:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.boedec.hoel.frequencygenerator

Set the MM to A/C, scale range to cover 2V. Set generator to Sine wave, slider to 60 Hz (though higher often works). Volume to max. See voltage.

But you really don't need to worry. A recent $100 amp - Atom, Heresy, Liquid Spark, should have enough gain to drive most any HP plenty loud from your btr5, or phone 3.5mm for that matter. I have a LG V20 driving a Liquid Spark via 3.5mm. (@1V default for 'Hi impedance') Plenty of volume from my HE400i phones..
 
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01890jp

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If you wire up a 3.5mm male (or clip one off a defunct IEM) and have a multimeter, you can get a rough idea of voltage out. Connect the MM to common and one channel - left or right. If you have a 1000 ohm or so resistor connect it across the 2 connections. (This 'emulates' connecting an Amp. Some devices auto-range the output voltage depending on the sensed resistance/impedance). If you don't already have a Signal Generator app, get one. Here is an android one:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.boedec.hoel.frequencygenerator

Set the MM to A/C, scale range to cover 2V. Set generator to Sine wave, slider to 60 Hz (though higher often works). Volume to max. See voltage.

But you really don't need to worry. A recent $100 amp - Atom, Heresy, Liquid Spark, should have enough gain to drive most any HP plenty loud from your btr5, or phone 3.5mm for that matter. I have a LG V20 driving a Liquid Spark via 3.5mm. (@1V default for 'Hi impedance') Plenty of volume from my HE400i phones..
Thanks. Most of what's in your first paragraph is above my pay grade but do you have a guess as to what would be the ideal volume setting for my btr5 if I ran it into an atom? Here are the specs...
https://www.fiio.com/btr5_parameters
Also. would getting a 3.5mm to rca improve the sound over a standard 3.5 to 3.5 with the atom?
 

JustAnandaDourEyedDude

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Ok I thought about that and the btr5 dac is pretty good but how about the btr5 amp coloring the sound?
Yes, the BTR5 amp (part of each of its dual ES9218P SoCs) will color the sound little. You would lose a little of the outstanding transparency of the Atom. However, the amp in the ES9218P is fairly good, a step up from the amp in the Galaxy S7. You would hear excellent sound quality with the HD6XXs. In the future, in order to slightly improve the sound quality, you could look into replacing the BTR5 with raistlin65's suggestion of a Tempotec Sonata HD Pro, or a E1DA #9038D, or a desktop DAC.

Is there anyway to know what level to set my btr5 at for it to be outputting two volts through the 3.5 mm output?
do you have a guess as to what would be the ideal volume setting for my btr5 if I ran it into an atom? Here are the specs...
Through its 3.5mm SE (single-ended) output, the BTR5 can apparently provide a max of 1.6 volts rms, possibly slightly more into the Atom's 3.5mm or RCA input sockets. [From its 2.5mm balanced output, it can provide a max of 2.77Vrms, but the Atom lacks balanced inputs.] The max allowable input voltage of the Atom on its High Gain setting (4.5X) appears to be 1.929Vrms. So by using the max vol of the SE output of the BTR5 to feed the Atom in High Gain mode, you are losing only about 1.62dB of the Atom's potential voltage gain. You could set the volume of BTR5 at its maximum. It will not cause the Atom to clip, nor will it consume any noticeable extra power on the BTR5. Then on High Gain, you would get 7.2Vrms output from the Atom (instead of 8.68Vrms possible) when the Atom's volume knob is set at max, for high impedance headphones such as the HD6XX and other high-impedance but high-efficiency headphones. This is still a lot more than the max of 2.77Vrms out of the 2.5mm BAL output of the BTR5 which you find satisfactorily loud, and so the HD6XX and similar headphones will be supplied with more than enough power to blow your eardrums out. With easy-to-drive 32 ohm impedance headphones or IEMs, the Atom can only output 5.66Vrms, so the max volume of the BTR5 is too much in High Gain and would drive the Atom into clipping. So in both cases use the Atom's volume knob to lower the output level to safe listening levels. Or better still, decrease the BTR5's volume level from max until you get satisfactorily loud listening levels from your headphones with the Atom's volume knob between 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock. To drive high-impedance low-efficiency headphones (costing multi thousands of dollars), you would need to replace the BTR5 and Atom with a desktop DAC with high voltage output, and a high-power desktop amp like the Schiit Heresy.

Also. would getting a 3.5mm to rca improve the sound over a standard 3.5 to 3.5 with the atom?
If both cables are well constructed, which one you use should make no difference to the sound. In theory if both ends were dual RCA (not your situation), the cable might have better channel separation (less crosstalk) than a cable that is 3.5mm at both ends; not likely to be audible though.
Examples, but there are several brands to choose from on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Oldboytech-Auxiliary-Braided-Compatible-Headphones/dp/B076BFZDG2
https://www.amazon.com/oldboytech-Nylon-Braided-Auxiliary-Smartphone-Echo-Dot/dp/B07HDYLFS2
If you run into ground loop hum or buzz or other noise problems with the single-ended cable connections, you would need to look into Berwhale's suggestion of using the 2.5mm BAL output jack of the BTR5. This would need a desktop amp with balanced XLR input connectors (or 4.4mm Pentaconn, as on the iFi Can), and would be more expensive than the JDS Atom.
 
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01890jp

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Yes, the BTR5 amp (part of each of its dual ES9218P SoCs) will color the sound little. You would lose a little of the outstanding transparency of the Atom. However, the amp in the ES9218P is fairly good, a step up from the amp in the Galaxy S7. You would hear excellent sound quality with the HD6XXs. In the future, in order to slightly improve the sound quality, you could look into replacing the BTR5 with raistlin65's suggestion of a Tempotec Sonata HD Pro, or a E1DA #9038D, or a desktop DAC.



Through its 3.5mm SE (single-ended) output, the BTR5 can apparently provide a max of 1.6 volts rms, possibly slightly more into the Atom's 3.5mm or RCA input sockets. [From its 2.5mm balanced output, it can provide a max of 2.77Vrms, but the Atom lacks balanced inputs.] The max allowable input voltage of the Atom on its High Gain setting (4.5X) appears to be 1.929Vrms. So by using the max vol of the SE output of the BTR5 to feed the Atom in High Gain mode, you are losing only about 1.62dB of the Atom's potential voltage gain. You could set the volume of BTR5 at its maximum. It will not cause the Atom to clip, nor will it consume any noticeable extra power on the BTR5. Then on High Gain, you would get 7.2Vrms output from the Atom (instead of 8.68Vrms possible) when the Atom's volume knob is set at max, for high impedance headphones such as the HD6XX and other high-impedance but high-efficiency headphones. This is still a lot more than the max of 2.77Vrms out of the 2.5mm BAL output of the BTR5 which you find satisfactorily loud, and so the HD6XX and similar headphones will be supplied with more than enough power to blow your eardrums out. With easy-to-drive 32 ohm impedance headphones or IEMs, the Atom can only output 5.66Vrms, so the max volume of the BTR5 is too much in High Gain and would drive the Atom into clipping. So in both cases use the Atom's volume knob to lower the output level to safe listening levels. Or better still, decrease the BTR5's volume level from max until you get satisfactorily loud listening levels from your headphones with the Atom's volume knob between 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock. To drive high-impedance low-efficiency headphones (costing multi thousands of dollars), you would need to replace the BTR5 and Atom with a desktop DAC with high voltage output, and a high-power desktop amp like the Schiit Heresy.


If both cables are well constructed, which one you use should make no difference to the sound. In theory if both ends were dual RCA (not your situation), the cable might have better channel separation (less crosstalk) than a cable that is 3.5mm at both ends; not likely to be audible though.
Examples, but there are several brands to choose from on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Oldboytech-Auxiliary-Braided-Compatible-Headphones/dp/B076BFZDG2
https://www.amazon.com/oldboytech-Nylon-Braided-Auxiliary-Smartphone-Echo-Dot/dp/B07HDYLFS2
If you run into ground loop hum or buzz or other noise problems with the single-ended cable connections, you would need to look into Berwhale's suggestion of using the 2.5mm BAL output jack of the BTR5. This would need a desktop amp with balanced XLR input connectors (or 4.4mm Pentaconn, as on the iFi Can), and would be more expensive than the JDS Atom.
This was exactly the info I was looking for, thanks so much for taking the time. Just one more ? if I may. Aside from the obvious volume increase, do you think I would get better sound doing this? I would hope that I could get a fuller sound with perhaps better bass, clarity and soundstage at the same listening level just by having an amp with more headroom. Thanks again
 

JustAnandaDourEyedDude

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This was exactly the info I was looking for, thanks so much for taking the time. Just one more ? if I may. Aside from the obvious volume increase, do you think I would get better sound doing this? I would hope that I could get a fuller sound with perhaps better bass, clarity and soundstage at the same listening level just by having an amp with more headroom. Thanks again
The short answer is no, not by virtue of more headroom alone. Not as long as each amplifier is operating within its linear range of operation, and the peak power output levels of the amps are closely matched on one and the same music track.

The long-winded explanation follows. As you say, an increase in volume level is perceived as better sound, up to a point. We can eliminate this factor by matching volume levels (power output levels) between different DAC and amp systems to examine the other factors. Modern DACs, if implemented correctly, are very high-performance, and so different DACs play practically no part in differences in system sound quality. Amps play a larger role, and electric-to-acoustic transducers (headphones and earphones) play by far the largest role in sound differences.

Considering first the soundstage and imaging factor, with stereo reproduction this comes down mainly to channel separation (crosstalk or crossfeed) and room reverberations. Most modern DACs and amps introduce very little extra crosstalk into the music signal, and certainly extra power headroom contributes absolutely nothing to this. The perception of the soundstage built into the stereo signal created by the studio mixing and mastering engineers depends mostly on the headphones, and you will have to research the various headphones for this. Some electronics with poor channel separation (rare) can narrow the soundstage.

The clarity factor (including instrument separation) is also affected far more by the tonality and detail accuracy of the headphones than by the electronics. However, accurate low-distortion headphones like the HD6XX can certainly reveal noise and distortion introduced in the electronics if their levels are high enough. Generally, noise and distortion of the electronics with a SINAD over 100 (THD+N less than -100 dB or 0.001%) will be hard to perceive at normal levels of music listening, which your BTR5 with its ES9218P clears easily. However, when listening with a high volume setting, you may be able to hear a little amp distortion and in very quiet music passages at the same high volume, you may be able to hear a little amp noise. If you are seeking guaranteed audibly transparency of the electronics, a SINAD of 116 dB or higher will give you that, though it is really overkill. The Atom amp is certainly audibly transparent, however when driven by the BTR5, the noise and distortion of the BTR5 passes through to the Atom to the HD6XX. If you really wanted the last iota of accuracy in the electronics, you could replace the BTR5 with the Tempotec or E1DA dongles or else a an audibly transparent desktop DAC. The other aspect of clarity is the tonality. Headphone/IEM FR curves that are boosted in the clarity range where our hearing is the most sensitive and in the treble, give sound that is perceived as clearer, brighter, leaner and more sharp-edged. But this is probably not what you want.

The third factor, regarding the fuller sound and better bass, is dependent both on volume level and on tonality (frequency response). Modern DACs and amps generally have pretty flat frequency response (FR) curves over the audible range of 20 Hz to 20 kHz, and so they have no influence on the tonality. So introducing the Atom downstream of the BTR5, and even replacing the BTR5 with a higher-SQ DAC will do nothing to the tonality, though the Atom will certainly give more volume headroom. Considering first the volume level, the nominal impedance and power conversion efficiency of the HD6XX are 300 ohms and 103 dB at 1 mW. Sustained long-exposure long-term listening at average SPL levels above 85 to 90 dB will damage your hearing. So counting 90 dB average SPL as the maximum you would need, and adding 20 dB headroom for brief loud passages in the music, 110 dB SPL should be the maximum that we would need to hear from our speakers, headphones and IEMs. [If you do not provide that 20 dB headroom for loud music passages, the amp can clip during them, resulting in unpleasant harsh distortion and loss of clarity. More power headroom than the needed 20 dB will not improve the non-clipping SQ.] At their max volume levels, the BTR5+Atom combo can drive the HD6XX to 125 dB, the BAL output of the BTR5 alone to 117 dB, and even the SE output of the BTR5 to 112 dB which all seemingly allow you to reach satisfyingly loud levels with enough headroom for extra loud passages.

I think the reason you find the BTR5's SE to be not loud enough is related to tonality of HD6XX rather than average power delivered by BTR5's SE. The impedance and efficiency values quoted for the HD6XX are either for a 1 kHz tone or averaged over the audible frequency range. The HD6XX have a steep roll-off in FR when going to lower frequencies below 100 Hz (though their response above 500 Hz is pretty neutral and accurate). The response is around 10+ dB lower at 20 Hz and around 15+ dB lower at 10 Hz than the Harman curve preferred by most people for modern music genres such as rock, rap and EDM. Thus at the lowest frequencies the BTR5's max SE output falls short by 8 to 13 dB of providing enough power for strong bass, plus in modern genres the bass tends to be continuously present. A poor way to overcome this is by bumping up the amp's power level such as by cranking up the Atom in High Gain. The bass would become satisfyingly loud, particularly because the perceived difference in loudness between bass and mids lessens at higher volumes (see Fletcher-Munson loudness curves). However, with low-distortion headphones like the HD6XX, the loudness of the upper mids and lower treble can simultaneously rise unnoticed to hearing-damaging levels.

Altering the tonality of the headphones is a preferable strategy for getting a fuller sound and better bass, for which there are a couple of good approaches. To reiterate, raising the power level is not recommended for altering the perceived tonality of the headphones. The approach to try first is to use software EQ in the BTR5 to try and boost the bass to better levels relative to the response at 1 kHz. There is however a limit to how much you can do this before the drivers distort. If the max non-distorting EQ does not make the HD6XX sound full enough or bass-rich enough for your taste, you might consider the second approach of supplementing or replacing the HD6XX with a headphone like the inexpensive yet reasonably accurate AKG K371 which has a FR that closely follows the Harman HP curve.
 
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01890jp

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Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I think you're right about the headphones. The 6-xx are great headphones no doubt but they definitely have some weaknesses. I listen to a lot of different kinds of music but mostly I listen to Classic Rock and progressive rock. They really seem to lack the energy for that type of music. Especially the drums. They just seem buried in the mixx in some songs particularly the snare drum. Some of the Reverb get snuffed out to. I also own a pair of Audio Technica m40x headphones which are considered very neutral. While they obviously can't compete with the 6-xx when it comes to detail and mid-range they have tighter bass response which is much more enjoyable when listening to rock music.
You mentioned the harman curve, I listen to my music using the USB audio player Pro app either streaming qobuz or with internal Flac files on my phone. There's an in-app purchase for toneboosters morphit software which offers headphone EQ correction for the harman Target along with many other headphones. The 6-xx sound dull and lifeless without using the harman curve. I usually use about 50% and it seems to open things up and add some air and treble
I think I'm going to spend my money trying another set of headphones, maybe something like the he4xx and just buy a balanced cable so I know I'll have plenty of volume with my btr5. I'm not looking for a bass monster just something that's tight with some impact , some Sound Stage and clear treble. More of an in the room experience. Those AKG headphones look nice but I'm guessing they're probably pretty similar to my m40x. I would definitely prefer something open back so that's why I'm leaning toward the four XX..
 
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