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Used Debut Carbon Evo - New stylus or new cartridge?

derKoekje

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For the past year I've made it my mission to buy at least one album a month, despite now owning a TT. But the time is now here, I've bought a used Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Evo, to pair with my Wharfedale Linton 85 speakers and Argon Audio SA-1 phone stage and amp. The stylus needs to be replaced. Since it came with an Ortofon Red but the stylus is missing, I am thinking I can replace it with the stylus of an Ortofon Blue since they are interchangeable. However, there seem to be so many more cartridges that are near this pricepoint and I'm only saving 15-20% by not getting a whole new cartridge. People mention that the Blue doesn’t strike the best quality for money balance, and perhaps it's a bit too bright but I feel hesitant grabbing something new without establishing a baseline on what 'normal' would sound like as I've never owned a TT before.

Any alternatives I should consider? I’m in Europe if that matters.
 

mike70

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The Ortofon Blue is a decent cartridge and you don't need to install and setup a new cartridge. If you're a newbie ... that's the best option.

If you want to mess with the cartridge changing game, the best bang for the buck today is the Audio Technica vm95 line of products. The vm95e is in the Ortofon Blue level, but much more cheaper and the vm95ml is a hell of a bargain.

In my opinion, that's all you need to know.
 

Ciobi69

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The Ortofon Blue is a decent cartridge and you don't need to install and setup a new cartridge. If you're a newbie ... that's the best option.

If you want to mess with the cartridge changing game, the best bang for the buck today is the Audio Technica vm95 line of products. The vm95e is in the Ortofon Blue level, but much more cheaper and the vm95ml is a hell of a bargain.

In my opinion, that's all you need to know.
I would like to buy the 95ml I've read only Good things about it here, does anyone have compared it with more expensive cartridge?
 

SteveC

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For a bit more you might also consider the Audio-Technica VM740ML or the Audio-Technica VM540ML. I just replaced the stylus of my old AT150MLX with the Audio-Technica VMN40ML and to say I'm impressed is an understatement. The EVO could also handle a Denon DL103 if you have a phono stage (or phono plus SUT) that can handle low output moving coil.
 

mike70

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I would like to buy the 95ml I've read only Good things about it here, does anyone have compared it with more expensive cartridge?
Yes, and price x performance the 95ml is unbeatable. I have the vm540ml, the 740ml and some MC with SUT.

Every step further adds tiny differences, it isn't "night and day". So, believe me, with the vm95ml you will have a great analog system.

Only some "caveat" about it ... the more refined stylus in the vm95ml needs more care in the setup compared to the elliptical Ortofon Blue or vm95e. Right tonearm height (paralell to the record) and azimuth (cartridge perfectly vertical) are very important.
 

AaronJ

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Can’t find much info about the capacitance of the phono input. If it’s not 100pf or less the VM95 might not be a good match. Good news is though that phono stages to pair well with the cart aren’t expensive. For just a few bucks more than the 2M blue stylus you can get a VM95ML and Schiit Mani that will be a dynamite pairing.
 
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derKoekje

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Can’t find much info about the capacitance of the phono input. If it’s not 100pf or less the VM95 might not be a good match. Good news is though that phono stages to pair well with the cart aren’t expensive. For just a few bucks more than the 2M blue stylus you can get a VM95ML and Schiit Mani that will be a dynamite pairing.

How do I find this out? It's closely tied to the NAD Amp1, maybe that helps?

I kind of don't want to clutter too much and mess with a separate phono stage, the whole reason for opting for the SA-1 was the excellent package of combining of power, a phono imput, utility with auto-channel switching, and Bluetooth. While I don't want to have a bad or bottlenecked setup I do have to share the living space with the missus so clean it does need to be. I don't mind consolidating a bit of quality for that especially considering I bought all of these items used anyway.

So cartridges yes, a more elaborate setup to accommodate a MC setup maybe no. The VM95ML is the same price as the 2M Blue. What would you consider their differences to be? What makes you recommend it over the Ortofon?

Yes, and price x performance the 95ml is unbeatable. I have the vm540ml, the 740ml and some MC with SUT.

Every step further adds tiny differences, it isn't "night and day". So, believe me, with the vm95ml you will have a great analog system.

Only some "caveat" about it ... the more refined stylus in the vm95ml needs more care in the setup compared to the elliptical Ortofon Blue or vm95e. Right tonearm height (paralell to the record) and azimuth (cartridge perfectly vertical) are very important.

That's nice, that's kind of just what I want. It's so easy to fall into the rabbit hole here and I'm trying to stay reasonable. Is it hard to properly set the cartridge up? And does it mean it's more sensitive to external vibrations (say, people walking)?
 

mike70

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How do I find this out? It's closely tied to the NAD Amp1, maybe that helps?

I kind of don't want to clutter too much and mess with a separate phono stage, the whole reason for opting for the SA-1 was the excellent package of combining of power, a phono imput, utility with auto-channel switching, and Bluetooth. While I don't want to have a bad or bottlenecked setup I do have to share the living space with the missus so clean it does need to be. I don't mind consolidating a bit of quality for that especially considering I bought all of these items used anyway.

So cartridges yes, a more elaborate setup to accommodate a MC setup maybe no. The VM95ML is the same price as the 2M Blue. What would you consider their differences to be? What makes you recommend it over the Ortofon?



That's nice, that's kind of just what I want. It's so easy to fall into the rabbit hole here and I'm trying to stay reasonable. Is it hard to properly set the cartridge up? And does it mean it's more sensitive to external vibrations (say, people walking)?

It's not hard ... you need to do a little more work, settings like VTA, azimuth, antiskating are important. With conical / elliptical styluses they aren't important.

The turntabe base is another aspect , I use a thick marble base with the turntable feets over special stands like vibrapods. You can dance a polka in the room without any effect :)
 

AaronJ

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How do I find this out? It's closely tied to the NAD Amp1, maybe that helps?

I kind of don't want to clutter too much and mess with a separate phono stage, the whole reason for opting for the SA-1 was the excellent package of combining of power, a phono imput, utility with auto-channel switching, and Bluetooth. While I don't want to have a bad or bottlenecked setup I do have to share the living space with the missus so clean it does need to be. I don't mind consolidating a bit of quality for that especially considering I bought all of these items used anyway.

So cartridges yes, a more elaborate setup to accommodate a MC setup maybe no. The VM95ML is the same price as the 2M Blue. What would you consider their differences to be? What makes you recommend it over the Ortofon?



That's nice, that's kind of just what I want. It's so easy to fall into the rabbit hole here and I'm trying to stay reasonable. Is it hard to properly set the cartridge up? And does it mean it's more sensitive to external vibrations (say, people walking)?
The VM95ML has a much, much better diamond than the 2M Blue. Audio Technica is the top value cartridge manufacturer right now and it’s not really close, provided that your setup can work with their cartridges. It’s not an outrageous requirement to need low capacitance with plenty of inexpensive options. The VM95ML is similar in performance to the 2M Bronze. Can debate whether Ortofon is overpriced or AT is underpriced.
 
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derKoekje

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The VM95ML has a much, much better diamond than the 2M Blue. Audio Technica is the top value cartridge manufacturer right now and it’s not really close, provided that your setup can work with their cartridges. It’s not an outrageous requirement to need low capacitance with plenty of inexpensive options. The VM95ML is similar in performance to the 2M Bronze. Can debate whether Ortofon is overpriced or AT is underpriced.

How would you rate the 95SH? From what I’ve it’s less finicky on what phono stages it will accept and people claim it’s a little more dynamic.
 

Ciobi69

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Yes, and price x performance the 95ml is unbeatable. I have the vm540ml, the 740ml and some MC with SUT.

Every step further adds tiny differences, it isn't "night and day". So, believe me, with the vm95ml you will have a great analog system.

Only some "caveat" about it ... the more refined stylus in the vm95ml needs more care in the setup compared to the elliptical Ortofon Blue or vm95e. Right tonearm height (paralell to the record) and azimuth (cartridge perfectly vertical) are very important.
thanks for the information, i need to buy the azimuth guide, then i could set it up decently, then im good to go, only read good things about this 95ml! and its cheap!
 

mike70

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thanks for the information, i need to buy the azimuth guide, then i could set it up decently, then im good to go, only read good things about this 95ml! and its cheap!

No regrets with a microline stylus ... no distortions, sibilances and a cleaner sound.

Is the more advanced stylus profile created in the 80s, some people have preference for the 70s shibata, surely because is a "touch" more darker / less detailed. But the sound at the end comes from your speakers, so you need to check all the chain, not only the cartridge.

Maybe for someone with bright / detailed speakers the shibata goes "better" ... but, if you have Wharfedale speakers .. can be too much of a good thing :)
 

raindance

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Microline stylii have this wonderful benefit of allowing you to listen to your record all the way to the lead out groove without audible inner groove distortion or excessive sibilance. The Ortofon red and blue stylii have awful IGD. Sometimes my favorite track on an album is near the end and the Audio Technica ML's let me enjoy it.

One disadvantage is that they don't tolerate dirty records well; they track deep in the grooves and clog up really easily and then sound awful until the stylus is cleaned.

Oh, and follow the tracking weight directions! Audio Technica know what they are talking about. Lots of people want to use lighter tracking and lose all the advantages of the stylus profile due to mistracking.
 

morillon

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what is more surprising, especially as you say the brand is serious, is that what has long been their pride, the micro line size, is now the entry level of their "big mm" 700 series

historically the shibata .... the lc ...then the ml...
now new 700 range:
ml 740 (common diam with the 540) < shibata 750 < lc 760..
so the "microline on the top" posters audiotechnica of our youth are to be looked at perhaps a little more circumspectly
;-))
 

mike70

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what is more surprising, especially as you say the brand is serious, is that what has long been their pride, the micro line size, is now the entry level of their "big mm" 700 series

historically the shibata .... the lc ...then the ml...
now new 700 range:
ml 740 (common diam with the 540) < shibata 750 < lc 760..
so the "microline on the top" posters audiotechnica of our youth are to be looked at perhaps a little more circumspectly
;-))

You're watching only the price ... the price tag have many facets. Patents, mass production, manual work, inspection, etc.

The SLC is something particular for AT, microline is used in many brands (even with other names, as SAS from Jico), so surely the SLC have smaller production. Shibata was patented for JVC CD-4 records (quadraphonic), I don't know really, but maybe the patent is expensive.

What I mean ... knowledge is the best argument, price tag ... much lesser.
The stylus profile with more contact and higher fidelity to the cutting machine is the microline.

stylus-table.gif
 
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mike70

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I use vinyl for almost 50 years... and I have the 33ptg2 and also used shibata.

Preferences can't be discussed, I only talk about facts or information. What anyone likes ... is what they like. Nothing more.
 

morillon

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I know a little
.. ;-)
personally I have various "montes de diam cantiveler" at at..
and even before the revival of vinyl, (including the marketing stunt of the new at range and in particular the small hold-up of the at95. "the modest" historically the very modest... way to make..audionote..hihi
I often preferred lc to ml..
;-)

in any case my point to temper what seems an enthusiasm can be put into perspective a little on the ml "sauce at95"

;-)
remember that many tthdg cartridges do not have these "ml"..
so that everyone knows their particularities etc.
craftsmen know well
;-)
(
the irony is in the thrill of the revival of vinyl, it is the success of the elliptical l at-33 anv "e" which was the small success of at...
before, moreover, then highlighting the sa, etc. on the descendants)
the big at-33 is now the sa..shibata..not ptg..
new art-9 ..shibata or lc
" the"art1000... lc
;-)
Surely it's not that simple...
;-)
 
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morillon

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I use vinyl for almost 50 years... and I have the 33ptg2 and also used shibata.

Preferences can't be discussed, I only talk about facts or information. What anyone likes ... is what they like. Nothing more.
that's why he pointed you to the organization of the new a't range..
also factual
;-)
(I also have some ten years of practice
...:eek:
it is a great chance offered by audiotechnica on a body mm to vary the sizes and observe the differences to see what suits us the most... I talk about it all the more freely as I have in the drawers of the elliptical of the lc of the ml in mm or mc AT etc. but to think about it, no more shibata for a while)
;-)
 
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WDeranged

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Get a VM95ML. Get two. They're a bargain, even now. Say goodbye to the majority of sibilance and distortion. Hello to a nice, clean full sound. It's been mentioned that you need to pay more attention to the cleanliness of stylus and vinyl with the ML, totally true.
 

drmevo

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The higher compliance 540ML might be a better match for the lightweight Pro-ject arm, no? Will still need low capacitance (maybe even more important than the VM95ML).
 
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