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USB "isolator" - is it a Thing?

TSX

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Hi everyone

I’ve seen a few people on the interwebs claiming sound improvements when using a galvanic (or whatver it’s called) USB isolator/decoupler.

My signal chain will be iPad (with USB C) -> Topping D10S DAC -> hifi system. The iPad is running on battery when connected to the DAC.

I don’t expect my iPad to add any unwanted digital noise in the chain, so would anyone with a similar setup as mine ever need such a gizmo?

Thanks
 

Matias

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DVDdoug

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I’ve seen a few people on the interwebs claiming sound improvements
It depends on the particular problem you're trying to solve, and if you have a problem. The problem is usually noise so don't give any credibility to anybody who says it improved the "soundstage" or made the sound "more clear" or any of that vague-unmeasurable nonsense. Short dropouts or data corruption will sound like noise (a "click" or "pop") or with longer dropouts you'll actually hear the loss of audio. It turns-out that jitter sounds like noise too, but the only way they know that is by artificially introducing jitter until it's orders-of-magnitude worse than you normally get, and then a defect becomes audible. It's impossible to "accidently" introduce frequency response variations or distortion.

I don’t expect my iPad to add any unwanted digital noise in the chain, so would anyone with a similar setup as mine ever need such a gizmo?
Usually the digital is fine... i.e. You rarely get a corrupted file when copying to/from a thumb drive, etc.... Real-time audio is a little different because it's time-sensitive, but if you' are getting glitches in the digital audio it's usually "something else", not the USB connection.

But, noise can get into the analog electronics through USB power. Computer power supplies are notoriously noisy because of all the digital switching going-on inside the computer. It's not a problem for the "intended purpose" because digital data is highly immune noise. But analog electronics (and our ears) are highly-sensitive to noise getting-into the analog-side of an ADC or DAC. It's most common with USP powered audio interfaces where noise gets amplified by the microphone preamp. It sometimes happens with a DAC or USB soundcard but it's less common since the DAC generates line-level signals with no amplification. It's not an issue if the interface has a separate power supply.

If a gizmo has a truly-isolated the ground it needs a separate power supply, or a battery, or a built-in DC-DC converter. With a DC-DC converter the power is being re-generated so it can be cleaned-up. I assume the Topping device has a DC-DC converter so it's probably cleaning-up the 5V power as well as eliminating any ground loop problems.
 
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TSX

TSX

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Thanks. Again. I’ll stop worrying about gear and listen to music instead
 

venquessa

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Best way to find out.

Make sure the audio is playing zeros and not paused or suspended and turn your output gain way up.

If you hear fsstctctctctfsssssstctctctctc or if you can "hear" the mouse moving, you have transferred digital noise from the iPad to the DAC's analogue ground. Usually it's not the CPU but the display hardware that makes the most noise with tics and fsss's as the display changes.

Digital microprocessor based systems' grounds are not quiet. They are used by huge amounts of spikey ICs and decoupling caps dumping all manor of garbage onto the grounds. On mains powered (including DC dongles) devices which are not earthed (PCs) the actual ground voltage can (usually is) floating at about 1/2 mains voltage. So the voltage between the iPad ground and "earth" is around 100VAC in the UK. So when connected like this the DAC analouge ground will be floating at 100VAC 50Hz/60Hz and a few dozen micro-amps of current.

On the extreme end, a basic office desktop PC and it's built in, on the motherboard sound output can have so much digital noise on it in the audio band it's infuriating. Been there, done that. Eventually bought a USB sound card which fixed part of it, but not all. Still quite a bit of noise.

So it's both the digital noise AND the ground "hum" should that floating VAC get "loose". Been there. It's not pleasant.

USB Isolators come in different forms. Some will attempt to couple the power and ground via a transformer and a modulator. Others don't bother and just optocouple the D+ and D- differential as a LED (or laser diode) brightness.

If you can power the DAC independently the later form of opto coupler will be fine. Not need for the transformer variants.

Running off battery you are free from that 100VAC mains leakage current, but not the general motherboard noise.

Limitations... USB1.0 and USB1.1 optocouplers are widely available at a £5-10 each. USB2.0 opto-couplers cost 100s and have limitations. USB3.0 optocouplers... forget it.
 

MaxBuck

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You all might be different, but I like to keep myself galvanically isolated just out of general principles .
 

venquessa

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If you don't want sleepness nights. I will make one suggestion.

DO NOT look at the grounds. Stay in the light folks.
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mhardy6647

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You all might be different, but I like to keep myself galvanically isolated just out of general principles .
Our contractor laughed when I specified that Faraday cage in the building plans for the house...
 
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