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Uptone ISO Regen Review and Measurements

Jinjuku

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All this back and forth. I just want to know one thing:

Will Alex sit for a blinded test with some identical $500 DAC's and headphones.

I don't care about 1000's of subjective reviews. I've seen enough of that with Ethernet cables and we know that's bung.
 

RayDunzl

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Jinjuku

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Hmmm. Ok.

First link offered by Google is from Stereophile.

With an interesting Follow-Up:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/hovland-hp-100-preamplifier-michael-fremer-march-2002

That's interesting:

"After the Home Entertainment 2001 show last May, Hovland's Alex Crespi came back to my place with an early-prototype Sapphire so I could hear it at home for a few hours. While we were hooking it up, he decided to get in some good-natured ball-busting, telling me that my mention of the hum had caused the company much grief, with many e-mails and phone calls coming his way from concerned and hesitant potential buyers. When I asked Crespi what he'd told the callers and e-mailers, he said, without affect, "I told them Mikey's got some grounding issues." Oh.

Of course, when I cranked up the volume on my HP-100, Crespi couldn't deny the hum. Fortunately, he'd brought along a spare HP-100—he wanted me to hear a new kind of resistor in the stepped volume attenuator. We switched preamps, and the hum was gone."
 

Thomas savage

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[Typing on a iPad here so excuse the rough cuts and lack of multi-quote.]

So Amir comes to a conclusion about our device based on his limited testing and focus on one particular area. And thus is dismissing an entire segment of the computer audio device market--essentially everything upstream of the DAC (server, power supplies, USB cards, galvanic isolators, USB cables, and signal generators) as being useless "trinkets, snake oil, and pet rocks" because his 12KHz AP FFT does not show him anything.
Early astronomers mistook a lot of what they observed as did doctors before more advanced test instruments came along. Heck, aspirin was deemed effective 70 years before its mechanism was understood.

But it is complete BS to say that our device does nothing, has no function, and that we have not published its effect on the USB signal. I can't paste in before/after eye-patterns (typing on iPad), but they kick off this thread and the significant improvement in signal integrity can be readily seen:
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...mpressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/

Of course Amir and the rest of you want to look at the other end of the elephant, but the fact is, the ISO REGEN performs its functions quite objectively. If a patient workes out an improves his cardiovascular condition, but the doctor just uses a stethoscope and says to cough--is that really enough to say "no improvement?"

And again, "objective evidence to back its function"? Did he test the galvanic isolation of our device? No? Why not? It's right in the name.
Ok, fair point i will be more succinct and direct with you in future.

Stop moaning about personal attacks where there have been non, stop moaning about smear campaigns and provide some objective evidence that can support the idea any of your products have a positive effect on what comes out of the analogue outputs of a well designed DAC.

Please no more eye patterns, they are great but how's that relevant to what we hear?

If at this point all you have referencing the request above is based on theory please feel free to post that. It's fine by me.
 

Thomas savage

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< snip>
Boy you are an obnoxious ass. Yes we have a spectrum analyzer. And how about you show and tell us about all the audio components you have designed, built, sold and supported? (I assume you know that UpTone is not my first outing? Google Hovland Company.)
I don't tolerate these kind of personal attacks at ASR. Please refrain from posting this kind of thing in the future.
 

Don Hills

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dallasjustice

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IMG_1743.JPG
Amir,
You failed to do a dowsing rod measurement. Here's a little primer just in case you forgot.
 
Last edited:

iridium

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March Audio

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Fascinating.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/227913-time-hovland-hp-100-lore.html
In the interests of fairness and balance, make sure to read the thread to the end. it's not long.

Edit: This post is aimed at the general readership, not a specific reply to Alex, though he is of course free to read it...
Fascinating. I think what strikes me is how non engineering based audio (well certain sectors of it) has become. Maybe it was always that way, but audio is engineering - period. How all this snake oil has permeated and become accepted into the world of hifi is totally beyond me.

We are obviously missing a trick. Shall we start the "ASR Audio C0-Operative" selling bollocks accessories that do nothing? There is real money to be made here.
 

Blumlein 88

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If you jump without measuring the distance you have some grounding issues:)
You mean like this grounding issue. I don't think the issue is observed until the moment of grounding.

 

Blumlein 88

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Hmmm. Ok.

First link offered by Google is from Stereophile.

With an interesting Follow-Up:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/hovland-hp-100-preamplifier-michael-fremer-march-2002
https://www.stereophile.com/content/hovland-sapphire-power-amplifier-measurements

Guess what else has some higher than usual 60 hz components.

"We are aware that there is a very slight amount of measurable 60Hz hum component on the output line. However, the amplifier will meet its published S/N specs if the test criteria in the specs are followed. In our opinion, reducing this hum further will negatively affect the attractive musical qualities of the Sapphire." Mr. Hovland

Then the end to the review:

Overall, while I agree with Michael that the Sapphire is drop-dead gorgeous, its measured performance is disappointing. Just because an amplifier uses tubes doesn't mean it also has to have hum, an ultrasonic resonance, or fairly high levels of distortion.—John Atkinson

JA
apparently doesn't understand the design by ear magic.
 

Thomas savage

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Fascinating. I think what strikes me is how non engineering based audio (well certain sectors of it) has become. Maybe it was always that way, but audio is engineering - period. How all this snake oil has permeated and become accepted into the world of hifi is totally beyond me.

We are obviously missing a trick. Shall we start the "ASR Audio C0-Operative" selling bollocks accessories that do nothing? There is real money to be made here.
My dad always says " if in doubt do nothing" ...:confused:
 

hvbias

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Tbh amir has come to a conclusion about your device, one based on the measurements he's take combined with his own knowledge base in this area. So to him it indeed does not do a great deal. You have offered no objective evidence to back its function plus the few theories you presented to counter the psu debacle were proved false . Theories that you presented with a deal more spite and malice imo than anything here i might add.

You take that as a insult, I can see it's a position you are agianst and can never accept but it's not a insult.

You take it as a insult likely because your emotionally invested in your company, that's fair enough but amir has no such investment. Your attachment in that regard is your responsibility alex , all that's happened here is someone has asserted a fact that you don't agree with but critically you can't counter their assertion in kind. I see your frustration, I wish you well developing this special test but no one has insulted you personally alex.

I raise your accusations of straw man with my own of deflection :D

To many here and indeed many folks that want to see more than " I heard it so it must be true" devices like yours ( going back to your defence that all audio engineers do as you do, that's daft as your device is a tweak a extra. It could have no function, be a pass through essentially the same potential does not exist with amps, dac speakers etc) represent a deep insult in themselves.

The problem we have at ASR is people come here having got used to winning arguments with just their imagination plus words and rely on seeming to know what they are on about but when asked to provide more they feel under threat. Under attack , just like you here alex . I know as I feel this at times here and most recently yesterday.

That's not the false of the members here, some can be dogmatic (dog with a bone) I agree but in the main they are just posing challenge, they want to deal in accepted terms , accepted in engineering and science that is.
It says I was tagged in this thread by you... in a thread I have never so much as opened before.

How about just letting it go, instead of picking a fight in an entirely unrelated thread. I was simply stating facts on dynamic range not attacking you.
 

Thomas savage

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It says I was tagged in this thread by you... in a thread I have never so much as opened before.

How about just letting it go, instead of picking a fight in an entirely unrelated thread. I was simply stating facts on dynamic range not attacking you.
@hvbias
You've got the wrong end of the stick, I was just highlighting our indecent as a example of how it can be hard for some ( in this case me ) but it's not fault of the guys here ( in this case you) . Basically saying this kind of thing will happen when audiophile types come here but it's not the false of our members, you all want to stick to strict terms and I respect that.

I originally tagged you in here( in this thread) but then thought better of it as I was concerned you might misinterpret it, as you indeed have.

I was in no way carying on a argument, if anything I was just highlighting my own false and defending you.

I edited the conversation because my subjective nonsense did not belong ( that was your point I believe ) . Once I got rid of my posts I did take the bit out of yours addressing me but kept your broad and intresting point about dynamic range in tact . ( for continuity I edited your post, wanting the thread to make sense to a reader ) .

So I acted against myself, not you. This is a objective audio forum and I'm happy to purge 'what I reckon' if it offends the facts / proper terminology etc.

It's hard to attract audiophiles to places like this, I try and keep the vibe as lighthearted and welcoming as possible but also I want to keep all you objective types happy. You guys don't want to trawl trough subjective crap and I do delete a fair bit, just because it's mine dose not mean it's ok. That's all that's happened here.

I'm sorry this has upset you, I probably should of explained my actions at the time but tbh thought little of it as to me it was ' no big deal' . My contributions in that thread were a distraction best removed .
 

LarsS

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Yes, I will probably get a next gen i7. For this interim period, I took advantage of the package deal on fry's

View attachment 8127

It may be my imagination but the system so far feels a bit sluggish compared to the older i7 I had in there. So having some buyer's remorse for going with i5.
@Amir,
have you tried whether the onboard graphics supports 4K video? Will start a rebuild of my previously failed Roon Bridge Budget build now aiming for a more full fledged silent PC.
 
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Hi Amir, Do you know Alex Peychev of APL Audio? You may have worked at Sony around the same time.
"Once in the U.S., after working briefly for a Mountain View, CA a/v company, Alex was recruited by Sony Electronics and began to work his way through the electronics giant’s Consumer Division to the Broadcast and Professional Division. He became their Senior Lead Electronics Engineer.

Alex eventually left Sony in 2003 and founded APL Hi-Fi to pursue his dream."

Great guy - great DAC's!

Anyway I have enjoyed reading your forum and appreciate the work you do. Have you ever measured a DAC or DDC with the audio clocks replaced? Say swapping a generic XO for Crytek CCHD-975? That would be an interesting test - do these expensive low phase noise clocks improve the analog audio output measurements. I mean how can these infinitesimally small measured differences account for the SQ changes?

While I enjoy reading your posts - I do have to ask just one simple question. How does the human mind perceive a stereo image from just two separate point sources? From all the research I have read - brain scientists can't really explain it - many theories - no proof.

So if one is to take that basic final result (and purpose) of an audio chain (is there music, if a stereo is playing and no one there to hear it? Air waveforms yes - music no), how can any single audio measurement capture this complex process? We can maybe make a few guesses at what a measured electrical aspect might produce in terms of subject sound quality - but until heard - just a guess.

Isn't almost every experience a human has a 'subjective biased illusion'? In some cultures fat women are the most attractive - in others near starvation bone thin is? Which is objectively more 'beautiful'? Etc...

So from a purely Philosophical perspective your adamant statements (bordering on absolutist dogma), that unless something can be measured and if someone perceives it sounds better - it's just a bias expectation result. Sounds like completely unsupported conjecture and rhetoric.

I see scientists make huge logical inference errors all the time. Most of biology, chemistry, physics, and even mathematical theories (Godel's incompleteness theorems) are rife with it.

Now if 10 people hear it and 9 agree it sounds better - that is further subject proof. No?
 

Mivera

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Hi Amir, Do you know Alex Peychev of APL Audio? You may have worked at Sony around the same time.
"Once in the U.S., after working briefly for a Mountain View, CA a/v company, Alex was recruited by Sony Electronics and began to work his way through the electronics giant’s Consumer Division to the Broadcast and Professional Division. He became their Senior Lead Electronics Engineer.

Alex eventually left Sony in 2003 and founded APL Hi-Fi to pursue his dream."

Great guy - great DAC's!

Anyway I have enjoyed reading your forum and appreciate the work you do. Have you ever measured a DAC or DDC with the audio clocks replaced? Say swapping a generic XO for Crytek CCHD-975? That would be an interesting test - do these expensive low phase noise clocks improve the analog audio output measurements. I mean how can these infinitesimally small measured differences account for the SQ changes?

While I enjoy reading your posts - I do have to ask just one simple question. How does the human mind perceive a stereo image from just two separate point sources? From all the research I have read - brain scientists can't really explain it - many theories - no proof.

So if one is to take that basic final result (and purpose) of an audio chain (is there music, if a stereo is playing and no one there to hear it? Air waveforms yes - music no), how can any single audio measurement capture this complex process? We can maybe make a few guesses at what a measured electrical aspect might produce in terms of subject sound quality - but until heard - just a guess.

Isn't almost every experience a human has a 'subjective biased illusion'? In some cultures fat women are the most attractive - in others near starvation bone thin is? Which is objectively more 'beautiful'? Etc...

So from a purely Philosophical perspective your adamant statements (bordering on absolutist dogma), that unless something can be measured and if someone perceives it sounds better - it's just a bias expectation result. Sounds like completely unsupported conjecture and rhetoric.

I see scientists make huge logical inference errors all the time. Most of biology, chemistry, physics, and even mathematical theories (Godel's incompleteness theorems) are rife with it.

Now if 10 people hear it and 9 agree it sounds better - that is further subject proof. No?
No
 
OP
amirm

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Hello RB. Welcome aboard and good first post :). I am going to answer them in pieces:

Hi Amir, Do you know Alex Peychev of APL Audio? You may have worked at Sony around the same time.
"Once in the U.S., after working briefly for a Mountain View, CA a/v company, Alex was recruited by Sony Electronics and began to work his way through the electronics giant’s Consumer Division to the Broadcast and Professional Division. He became their Senior Lead Electronics Engineer.

Alex eventually left Sony in 2003 and founded APL Hi-Fi to pursue his dream."

Great guy - great DAC's!
No, I don't remember Alex. The group you mention was a sister R&D group to ours and was just across the parking lot from us. We reported to completely different management in Japan. I did however know Charlie Steinberg who managed them though and a few other engineers but not Alex.
 
OP
amirm

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Thread Starter #419
Anyway I have enjoyed reading your forum and appreciate the work you do. Have you ever measured a DAC or DDC with the audio clocks replaced? Say swapping a generic XO for Crytek CCHD-975? That would be an interesting test - do these expensive low phase noise clocks improve the analog audio output measurements. I mean how can these infinitesimally small measured differences account for the SQ changes?
Thanks for the kind words. No, I have not had a dac with replaceable clocks. The topic you mention is a hot one as of late with a lot of arguments. I would love to measure such a device. Do you have any in mind that I could purchase to measure and evaluate?
 

Jinjuku

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So is Alex going to be debunking the external induction of mains leakage not being a cofounder or is this a done deal?
 
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