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Uptone ISO Regen Review and Measurements

Superdad

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There was no insult in there. My system produced audio with identical functionality with and without ISO Regen. If on the other hand I take out my high-end DAC, it stops working. This is what I was saying.
Well you wrote:
Your device on the other hand doesn't do anything. It has no function and the little that it does, is to degrade performance of downstream device by injecting mains ac current and such. This is why the request for controlled listening test is much more valid than for high-end audio equipment manufacturers.

So it is not correct to put yourself in the bucket of high-end audio equipment makers. You are in digital tweak business and so far, selling on ideas and not performance that can be verified.



Not only is it insulting to me, but also to the 1,000s of people who have bought our products and raved about in great detail what they heard.

Really you are putting your own ears and judgement on a pedestal above everyone else. But of course you don't see that.

This is a lot like arguing politics with my father...:p
 

March Audio

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Oh for F's sake. Only about 30% of the people who buy our product use it with the Mean Well. You two just can't let go.

And as for Amir's lovely insults, go sling the same at the rest of the makers in this space.

Thomas: You wonder why ASR gets slammed for bias and nastiness? All that spinning and defense you put up (at CA yesterday) goes right out the window when your "partner" continues the smear.

I'm done here. Have way too many more worthwhile things to do with my time.
Sorry Alex, the number of people that use the SMPS is not relevant in itself. Personally I still think 30% is quite high. The fact is that the majority of them will use single ended systems with which the PSU could (very likely) cause a problem. It seems unlikely you did sufficiently in depth testing otherwise this obvious problem would have come to light. Going by the issues in the original Regen (ground currents again and the gnd lift resistor), and what you have talked about in these threads, I dont think Uptone have a real grasp on the technical issues in single ended systems.

Do you have an audio analyser? Which One? Do you have a spectrum analyser? Which one?

The problem you see Alex is that when you make claims about the audibility of apparently totally unmeasureable positive effects of the Regen, and yet you didnt know about (and still people think an improvement is happening) an easily measurable deficiency, then the claims tend to have little credibility.

So we are back to exactly where we were with the original regen. You are incapable of providing any real evidence, subjective or objective, that it actually does anything to improve the analogue output of a DAC. We have evidence it causes problems. You turn tail and run.
 
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amirm

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Thread Starter #385
Not only is it insulting to me, but also to the 1,000s of people who have bought our products and raved about in great detail what they heard.
I realize if someone has bought the device, they would not feel good about objective data that says the attributes that they heard, may not be there. That can't be helped.

What can help is to try to bridge the gap by conducting controlled testing to investigate what people are hearing. If there is a lot of conviction there, then you should put yourself forward for that test. Otherwise, for any bad feelings, you need to look inside yourself.
 
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amirm

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Really you are putting your own ears and judgement on a pedestal above everyone else. But of course you don't see that.
I am not doing that. What I am relying on is understanding of audio engineering, psychoacoustics, and measurements we have performed. All the arrows point to the same conclusion.

Let's see if we can make progress. I will offer $500 to anyone who can produce a controlled listening test that shows your device to have any audible improvement.

It doesn't have to include me in the testing. Let's take a few of your best customers with loudest voices of praise, video them testing the device without knowing it is in or out of the system and see if they can hear the difference reliably. For that bit of work, they will be earning enough money to buy more of your hardware. Deal???
 

Thomas savage

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Oh for F's sake. Only about 30% of the people who buy our product use it with the Mean Well. You two just can't let go.

And as for Amir's lovely insults, go sling the same at the rest of the makers in this space.

Thomas: You wonder why ASR gets slammed for bias and nastiness? All that spinning and defense you put up (at CA yesterday) goes right out the window when your "partner" continues the smear.

I'm done here. Have way too many more worthwhile things to do with my time.
Tbh amir has come to a conclusion about your device, one based on the measurements he's take combined with his own knowledge base in this area. So to him it indeed does not do a great deal. You have offered no objective evidence to back its function plus the few theories you presented to counter the psu debacle were proved false . Theories that you presented with a deal more spite and malice imo than anything here i might add.

You take that as a insult, I can see it's a position you are agianst and can never accept but it's not a insult.

You take it as a insult likely because your emotionally invested in your company, that's fair enough but amir has no such investment. Your attachment in that regard is your responsibility alex , all that's happened here is someone has asserted a fact that you don't agree with but critically you can't counter their assertion in kind. I see your frustration, I wish you well developing this special test but no one has insulted you personally alex.

I raise your accusations of straw man with my own of deflection :D

To many here and indeed many folks that want to see more than " I heard it so it must be true" devices like yours ( going back to your defence that all audio engineers do as you do, that's daft as your device is a tweak a extra. It could have no function, be a pass through essentially the same potential does not exist with amps, dac speakers etc) represent a deep insult in themselves.

The problem we have at ASR is people come here having got used to winning arguments with just their imagination plus words and rely on seeming to know what they are on about but when asked to provide more they feel under threat. Under attack , just like you here alex . I know as I feel this at times here and most recently yesterday.

That's not the false of the members here, some can be dogmatic (dog with a bone) I agree but in the main they are just posing challenge, they want to deal in accepted terms , accepted in engineering and science that is.
 

Thomas savage

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Alex, did you force Chris to lock the thread over at CA because you were loosing it on all grounds ? I am not accusing, just asking ;)
No, and Chris was very generous to allow such a thread. If that kind of thing sprung up here I'd probably of shut it down way before things got personal but Chris allowed all sides to have a say and I thank him for the opportunity.
 

March Audio

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Our products--like those of virtually every other high-end manufacturer--are designed both on the bench and in the listening room. Ask 100 other designers--call Charlie Hansen, Paul McGowan, Conrad-Johnson, whoever--and they will ALL tell you that listening is a key component of production development. And we are talking down to small parts changes too.
Do any of them organize and conduct "controlled listening tests" that would satisfy all you DBT-devotees? No! They are all to busy doing real work, and their systems are good enough and known well enough that with their own reference recordings they can make their determinations very quickly. Single-variable tests. A/B/A/B.

Good grief it took 15 seconds for me to pick which of the hub chips we preferred and separately to hear how clearly better--and worthwhile to use--is the Crystek 575 clock.

I know all this is hard for people who have not spent decades intimately involved in the design process of fine audio components to accept this fact. But next time you are at an audio show, talk to a few engineers about their process.
But, did you find out why the chip sounded better (giving you the benefit of the doubt lets assume it did). Did you validate your subjective experience? If you didnt, and you didnt /couldnt measure anything tangible, then you are just playing at specmanship putting a bunch of components together that on paper sound like a good idea. ooh the lower phase noise clock must be better - therefore with your expectation bias you find subjectively that it is. No surprises there. Thats not engineering, thats garden shed. Do you even possess a spectrum analyser?

I would say the same about the designers you mention if that is indeed how they operate. Only in the domestic audio engineering field would this happen.
 
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Thomas savage

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Oh @Superdad if you are going to flounce out of here feel free to go full Malcom tucker.. just make it good, if it's brilliantly done and the swearing it nigh on poetic il leave it in and even might give you a free pass back after the dust settles. ( but you can't flounce twice so don't go off half cocked ok! )

I'm thinking of doing a flounce of the year prize so don't waste the opportunity :D

.... no pressure
 

March Audio

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If anyone hasnt seen Malcom Tucker just go to youtube. Thomas is spot on, absolute poetry. The goings on at the Department of Social Affairs And Citizenship (DoSAC). Allegedly based on Tony Blairs press secretary Alistair Campbell.

May offend those of a delicate constitution :) .

 
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Blumlein 88

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Oh @Superdad if you are going to flounce out of here feel free to go full Malcom tucker.. just make it good, if it's brilliantly done and the swearing it nigh on poetic il leave it in and even might give you a free pass back after the dust settles. ( but you can't flounce twice so don't go off half cocked ok! )

I'm thinking of doing a flounce of the year prize so don't waste the opportunity :D

.... no pressure
Didn't know of M Tucker. Watched a few youtubies of him. Ah...okay I guess.

I once worked for someone like that. A bit toned down, but like that quite often. He gets out of prison either next year or the year after.
 

Superdad

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Tbh amir has come to a conclusion about your device, one based on the measurements he's take combined with his own knowledge base in this area. So to him it indeed does not do a great deal. You have offered no objective evidence to back its function....

.......

To many here and indeed many folks that want to see more than " I heard it so it must be true" devices like yours ( going back to your defence that all audio engineers do as you do, that's daft as your device is a tweak a extra. It could have no function, be a pass through essentially the same potential does not exist with amps, dac speakers etc) represent a deep insult in themselves.
....
[Typing on a iPad here so excuse the rough cuts and lack of multi-quote.]

So Amir comes to a conclusion about our device based on his limited testing and focus on one particular area. And thus is dismissing an entire segment of the computer audio device market--essentially everything upstream of the DAC (server, power supplies, USB cards, galvanic isolators, USB cables, and signal generators) as being useless "trinkets, snake oil, and pet rocks" because his 12KHz AP FFT does not show him anything.
Early astronomers mistook a lot of what they observed as did doctors before more advanced test instruments came along. Heck, aspirin was deemed effective 70 years before its mechanism was understood.

But it is complete BS to say that our device does nothing, has no function, and that we have not published its effect on the USB signal. I can't paste in before/after eye-patterns (typing on iPad), but they kick off this thread and the significant improvement in signal integrity can be readily seen:
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...mpressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/

Of course Amir and the rest of you want to look at the other end of the elephant, but the fact is, the ISO REGEN performs its functions quite objectively. If a patient workes out an improves his cardiovascular condition, but the doctor just uses a stethoscope and says to cough--is that really enough to say "no improvement?"

And again, "objective evidence to back its function"? Did he test the galvanic isolation of our device? No? Why not? It's right in the name.
 

Superdad

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But, did you find out why the chip sounded better (giving you the benefit of the doubt lets assume it did).
Yes, the hub chip we chose ended up being the one with the best signal integrity as seen in our eye-patterns. But as it happened, we did not know that until after we had listened to the 3 sets of boards we had built (these are surface mount QFN and BGA parts so it is not as if we could have measured the devices before building sets of boards, and they were delivered from our board house to my place first--so naturally I took a listen before the measurements.

Did you validate your subjective experience? If you didnt, and you didnt /couldnt measure anything tangible, then you are just playing at specmanship putting a bunch of components together that on paper sound like a good idea. ooh the lower phase noise clock must be better - therefore with your expectation bias you find subjectively that it is. No surprises there. Thats not engineering, thats garden shed. Do you even possess a spectrum analyser?

I would say the same about the designers you mention if that is indeed how they operate. Only in the domestic audio engineering field would this happen.
Boy you are an obnoxious ass. Yes we have a spectrum analyzer. And how about you show and tell us about all the audio components you have designed, built, sold and supported? (I assume you know that UpTone is not my first outing? Google Hovland Company.)

How many engineers in the high-end do you know personally? There are at least 70 who have known me personally for a couple of decades. As in, I could walk up to them at CES or Munich and they would remember my name without my wearing a name badge. And I've sold quite a few REGENs and UltraCap LPS-1 power supplies to other prominent manufacturers. Ask Ted Smith, Bascom King, Arnie Nudell, or Paul McGowan--all of PS Audio about our products. Or Jeurgen Reis of MBL. Or Charlie Hansen. I could go on. But next time you are at a show--assuming you travel to such--do interview a couple of designers about their process.

Oh, by the way, assuming your BE718 moniker and speaker avatar refers to Usher Loudspeakers, there was a time, about 9 years ago, when Usher utilized the MusiCap film-and-foil polypropylene capacitors (which I and my Hovland partners developed in the 1980s and which have been in continuous production and sale for 30 years this very year) in the crossovers of their top models--as have and do dozens of other well-known loudspeaker and electronics OEMs. And they don't do it because our parts are cheap--they are not--nor because of the brand since some have made us promise not to disclose their usage.
Of course neither you nor Amir will have the gear to measure the sonic effects of a fine film capacitor. But good luck getting our clients (or the clients of other preferred cap brands) to switch brands.
 

tr1ple6

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[Typing on a iPad here so excuse the rough cuts and lack of multi-quote.]

So Amir comes to a conclusion about our device based on his limited testing and focus on one particular area. And thus is dismissing an entire segment of the computer audio device market--essentially everything upstream of the DAC (server, power supplies, USB cards, galvanic isolators, USB cables, and signal generators) as being useless "trinkets, snake oil, and pet rocks" because his 12KHz AP FFT does not show him anything.
Early astronomers mistook a lot of what they observed as did doctors before more advanced test instruments came along. Heck, aspirin was deemed effective 70 years before its mechanism was understood.

But it is complete BS to say that our device does nothing, has no function, and that we have not published its effect on the USB signal. I can't paste in before/after eye-patterns (typing on iPad), but they kick off this thread and the significant improvement in signal integrity can be readily seen:
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...mpressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/

Of course Amir and the rest of you want to look at the other end of the elephant, but the fact is, the ISO REGEN performs its functions quite objectively. If a patient workes out an improves his cardiovascular condition, but the doctor just uses a stethoscope and says to cough--is that really enough to say "no improvement?"

And again, "objective evidence to back its function"? Did he test the galvanic isolation of our device? No? Why not? It's right in the name.

As for your "shit the bed and cry" comment, I have no idea what you are talking about Thomas. Maybe you should grow up a bit (I'm sure I'm 20 years your senior) and learn to edit your long rambling, mostly non-sensical posts. Figure out what it is you actually want to communicate and focus on that.
How about you make a short list of the things your device is supposed to do. Then you provide measurements proving your theory and Amir does a peer review of your measurements. Should be simple enough? I personally don't want to destroy businesses of well meaning individuals but at the same time the consumer has been taken for a ride way too many times in the audio industry and we need some accountability.
 

March Audio

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Yes, the hub chip we chose ended up being the one with the best signal integrity as seen in our eye-patterns. But as it happened, we did not know that until after we had listened to the 3 sets of boards we had built (these are surface mount QFN and BGA parts so it is not as if we could have measured the devices before building sets of boards, and they were delivered from our board house to my place first--so naturally I took a listen before the measurements.



Boy you are an obnoxious ass. Yes we have a spectrum analyzer. And how about you show and tell us about all the audio components you have designed, built, sold and supported? (I assume you know that UpTone is not my first outing? Google Hovland Company.)

How many engineers in the high-end do you know personally? There are at least 70 who have known me personally for a couple of decades. As in, I could walk up to them at CES or Munich and they would remember my name without my wearing a name badge. And I've sold quite a few REGENs and UltraCap LPS-1 power supplies to other prominent manufacturers. Ask Ted Smith, Bascom King, Arnie Nudell, or Paul McGowan--all of PS Audio about our products. Or Jeurgen Reis of MBL. Or Charlie Hansen. I could go on. But next time you are at a show--assuming you travel to such--do interview a couple of designers about their process.

Oh, by the way, assuming your BE718 moniker and speaker avatar refers to Usher Loudspeakers, there was a time, about 9 years ago, when Usher utilized the MusiCap film-and-foil polypropylene capacitors (which I and my Hovland partners developed in the 1980s and which have been in continuous production and sale for 30 years this very year) in the crossovers of their top models--as have and do dozens of other well-known loudspeaker and electronics OEMs. And they don't do it because our parts are cheap--they are not--nor because of the brand since some have made us promise not to disclose their usage.
Of course neither you nor Amir will have the gear to measure the sonic effects of a fine film capacitor. But good luck getting our clients (or the clients of other preferred cap brands) to switch brands.
Alex, you have missed the point again. You state that this chip might have the best eye patterns. Thats great, Im pleased for you, but again this is just specmanship. However what you havent done is establish that this translates into the DAC having better analogue output. I have asked this before and I will ask this again; how have you validated that improving USB eye pattern beyond the USB spec requirements leads to improved DAC analogue output?

Considering that when we went through this with the original Regen you didnt have an audio analyser or spec an, I dont think it is an unreasonable question to ask. Most certainly not obnoxious. What audio analyser and spec an do you have?

How is it relevant if I know these designers personally? I dont know what their design process is, but if they dont validate their subjective experience with technical test, measurement and understanding of cause and effect then they are hardly engineers. As i said I dont know what they do so I cant pass comment on them. However I do see your, and Uptones major discipline is marketing. There doesn't seem much engineering process going on.
So when you say "you developed"" Musicap capacitors, did you really mean to say ""someone else"'. IIRC my Ushers had Bennic electrolytic and some poly I cant remember. They sounded fine, but I am sure you could change the sound by using different caps.

Alex, what has the caps in Usher speakers got to do with any of the points Im making? This is about Uptones technical R&D capability, process, marketing claims and product performance.

BTW I have access to pretty much the entire catalogue of Keysight Test and Measurement gear.

On my desk currently. Shall I get one of our vector network analysers out to take a look at some capacitors and XO networks?

IMG_20170816_154159.jpg



edit: Just for your interest Alex, here is what is in my Usher XO, Bennic and Rapport caps

usher.jpg
 
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March Audio

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[Typing on a iPad here so excuse the rough cuts and lack of multi-quote.]

So Amir comes to a conclusion about our device based on his limited testing and focus on one particular area. And thus is dismissing an entire segment of the computer audio device market--essentially everything upstream of the DAC (server, power supplies, USB cards, galvanic isolators, USB cables, and signal generators) as being useless "trinkets, snake oil, and pet rocks" because his 12KHz AP FFT does not show him anything.
Early astronomers mistook a lot of what they observed as did doctors before more advanced test instruments came along. Heck, aspirin was deemed effective 70 years before its mechanism was understood.

But it is complete BS to say that our device does nothing, has no function, and that we have not published its effect on the USB signal. I can't paste in before/after eye-patterns (typing on iPad), but they kick off this thread and the significant improvement in signal integrity can be readily seen:
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...mpressions-kicked-off-with-some-measurements/

Of course Amir and the rest of you want to look at the other end of the elephant, but the fact is, the ISO REGEN performs its functions quite objectively. If a patient workes out an improves his cardiovascular condition, but the doctor just uses a stethoscope and says to cough--is that really enough to say "no improvement?"

And again, "objective evidence to back its function"? Did he test the galvanic isolation of our device? No? Why not? It's right in the name.

As for your "shit the bed and cry" comment, I have no idea what you are talking about Thomas. Maybe you should grow up a bit (I'm sure I'm 20 years your senior) and learn to edit your long rambling, mostly non-sensical posts. Figure out what it is you actually want to communicate and focus on that.
Interesting Alex, please show us what your extensive testing showed. Not sure the Aspirin analogy is applicable. Demonstrable and verifiable effects were seen with Aspirin. Unfortunately the views a few impressionable audiophiles don't really fall into the same category.

Yes the device does something, but is what it does useful? As I said a few pages back, improving the 5v PSU can be useful if your Bus powered dac has inadequate power supply regulation and filtering. That feature is of no use with any "desktop" dac. Galvanic isolation is a proven solution to a known and understood problem. AFAIK a lot of dacs have galvanic isolation built in, so no use for them. Fine, it may help with some dacs that don't (assuming you have a problem that needs solving), but its a shame your SMPS ruins the day with its leakage current. It would also be interesting to have a look with an RF spec an to see what RF garbage is also making its way into the dac from the SMPS.

Please demonstrate how "improving" the USB eye pattern beyond USB spec requirements improves the DAC analogue output. So far that feature has not been shown to be of,any benefit.
 
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Don Hills

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