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Uptone ISO Regen Review and Measurements

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amirm

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Is this why USB cables are limited to relatively short lengths?
Correct. Eventually the signal gets too degraded to be interpreted correctly.

Also is there a (reasonable) limit as to the number of times the signal can be "cleaned" (converted to digital) and re-transmitted?
From what I recall, there can be 5 or so hubs/repeaters in the path. The problem eventually becomes one of latency and compatibility with a source device in a computer not waiting long enough for a response to through all the intermediate devices.
 
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From CA Forum:

upload_2017-8-11_21-0-14.png


Actually, I have an LPS-1 coming my way :). I will of course measure it to see if Larry's assumptions are correct regarding its performance.

Until then, does someone know or can ask Larry which DAC he has that retails for $550? And what specific music he thinks best brings out the advantage of Iso Regen? I like to repeat his experience as close as I possibly can and see if I can subjectively hear what he is hearing.
 
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Looks like he has the iFi micro iDSD black. I have the silver one. So the question to ask him if he thinks the benefits of Iso Regen exists in the silver unit which he has also owned.
 

pinkupanda

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No interpolation or extrapolation. All digital data going into Iso Regen come out as exactly the same value.

Any digital signal that is transmitted on wire becomes analog in nature and starts to degrade. Fortunately since the values are only one or zero, we can detect them as such. The hub controller in the Iso Regen receives this signal, converts it back to digital and then retransmits them as analog yet again. In that sense, you get cleaner signal if the implementation of USB is better in the Iso Regen than it was in the computer.

A good quality USB card inside the PC or the DAC's USB receiver capable of reconstructing the signal without degradation would have the same result ? Is it desirable to fix the problem at the source, like a quality USB PCIe card in the PC ?
 

pinkupanda

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Thanks for the explanation Blumlein.

Of course plenty of DACs don't seem to be effected by the noise of USB at the analog output until it has gotten terribly bad and out of spec. Many audiophiles think if the input USB is cleaner the DAC outputs a cleaner better signal. When in fact until things get pretty bad the signal might be much cleaner and make zero difference to the analog signal we listen to from the DAC.

Yes, a sensible DAC designer providing USB input would have thought of all these situations as well, right ?
 
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A good quality USB card inside the PC or the DAC's USB receiver capable of reconstructing the signal without degradation would have the same result ? Is it desirable to fix the problem at the source, like a quality USB PCIe card in the PC ?
USB is implemented in the core chipset of PCs so it is not a card. That implementation comes from likes of Intel and has excellent quality.

There are aftermarket "audiophile" USB cards to be sure. What value they have remains to be seen.

As it turns out, I bought a new PC motherboard to fix my workstation today. It has a special low-noise USB port. I plan to do an AB test against its standard port to see if there is anything of substance in the output of the DAC.
 

Sal1950

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As it turns out, I bought a new PC motherboard to fix my workstation today. It has a special low-noise USB port.
Make and model?
 
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RayDunzl

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You too?

I (unfortunately) have a new PC (I think I blew a memory slot)... 9 years old, couldn't troubleshoot very well... All it could muster was the first 2Gb, and would only boot if three slots (should show 6Gb) of the six (12Gb) were populated.

So...

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z270-SLI-PLUS.html#productFeature-section

It has the same Realtek ALC1220 and amp module, and really blasts the PC speakers. Haven't tried the headphone yet.

---

Being on the 5 (or is it 10?) year plan it gets an i7-7700k and 16Gb and (cough... choke...) Windows 10...

No optical output or even an S/PDIF header on this board, so using the old Signstek to get to the stereo.

---

REW/UMIK-1 measurements look a little different, haven't had the chance to stare and compare yet, still making other things work again.
 
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Thomas savage

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I don't think Amir will let me get into that here, he claims this is a family oriented site and all that. :cool:
Starts with a chance meeting, a few drinks and ends with your cloths on the front lawn and all your cool stuff on eBay..
 

March Audio

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So how does it clean something that is "unclean" to start with ? Does it extrapolate ? A bitstream of data that comes in, the same bitstream comes out, right ? So I am trying to understand, what is it actually cleaning ?
Further to Blumleins reply, take a look here at the Intona website regarding the USB compliance testing of their isolator.

http://intona.eu/en/answer/1245

Hey Alex, can you publish your compliance test results?
 
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Following the conversation on CA forum, seems like folks think this is same old, same old arguments between the objectivist and subjectivist camps. It is not so and at least with me.

The typical objectivist argument would have been to just dismiss the value of Iso Regen and laugh and any claim otherwise. This is not what we did and is not the type of forum ASR is. I created this forum so that when we say something is not effective, we can point to actual data that can be replicated and viewed as being so. That is why you see all the data, investment in time and money to produce such evidence. And oh, if a device shows value, we show that too. In other words, we investigate the validity of our own claims as much as the other side.

Now that we have done that on the objective side, I like to also see what progress we can make on the subjective front. That is why I asked for the exact setup that has created the wonderful results folks are raving about. I like to recreate that -- on my dime again -- to see if we take those variables, something remains or not.

If what is left is the difference between two ears, we can even go after that. For example, I have shown that despite my aging ears, I am very good (trained) listener and able to find even the smallest differences in blind tests. Here is an example of archmiago's test of redbook vs high-res file that I passed: http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/06/24-bit-vs-16-bit-audio-test-part-i.html

upload_2017-8-12_9-21-58.png


Note that this was a much higher standard than what Archimago asked about which was for someone to run the test and vote. They could have easily listened once, voted randomly and still get it right.

Importantly the above test was done on my laptop with my etymotic headphones.

I like to see people try to see if they can pass the above test. If they cannot, then I don't want to hear that they can hear better than others. They simply cannot and are not critical listeners as to be able to hear differences that may evade the best instrumentation.

So the excuse put forward by Firedog doesn't hold:

upload_2017-8-12_9-26-7.png


I have done it and my work stands and pretty concrete evidence of passing such tests. I would have easily passed that test in front of 1000 people watching me do it.

Note that the test had signal processing countermeasures to make all but impossible to pass it using computer analysis. And I did not resort to any such methods.

So just as having the instrumentation and experience to use them to analyze products, I am offering the same in subjective analysis in controlled testing.

upload_2017-8-12_9-31-37.png


Actually it does -- very much so according to accepted audio science. By your logic we should not prescribe any medicine to anyone because no test shows that it works for people outside of the test.

But sure, we may not be able to get 100% there but by trying, we can get much closer to it than not attempting. If we duplicate their audio setup and with skilled listeners we can't hear the difference, then it would put their statements in fair amount of doubt.

Bottom line here is to make progress and do so with data.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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I just use an 18 inch USB cable.
Me? I use a 5-meter USB. I splurged and paid $50 for it from Audio Advisor. Sounds awesomely great to me from a standard USB2 port on my PC, especially with native 5.0/5.1 files at DSD256 or PCM352.8K. My Exasound E28 DAC is galvanically isolated, BTW.

I already wasted money on a non-ISO Regen and a Corning glass cable to try to make it sound "better". No luck whatsoever. So, I am done messing with USB add-ons or special cables unless there is something that demonstrates clear measurable superiority of the analog output from the DAC. Fat chance of that.
 
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BTW, as a group, we flunked the Archimago's test big time:

1_Bozza.jpg


In other words, less people thought the real, 24-bit version, was the 24-bit version than the 16-bit. Or at best, both got the same number of votes as being high resolution.
 

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The one real big problem in the subjective camp is:
They don't do any real subjective listening tests!

Sean Olive at Harman does real subjective listening tests.
While the subjective camp, just makes statements that they have no intention of supporting.

If they did real subjective listening tests most of these threads would only have a few posts or would disappear completely.
 

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The Gigabyte B8: http://www.gigabyte.us/Motherboard/GA-Gaming-B8-rev-10#kf

It also has a high-performance DAC in an embedded module. Claims 120 db dynamic range! Will be benchmarking that against the Behringer. :)
No optical output or even an S/PDIF header on this board, so using the old Signstek to get to the stereo.
Being on the 5 (or is it 10?) year plan it gets an i7-7700k and 16Gb and (cough... choke...) Windows 10...
Nice board, I've always been partial to Gigabyte. Is that todays answer to ever higher cpu numbers, ever more led lights on the MB? LOL
I know we're hard headed but I would also lament the missing optical out.
I'm on year 9 since my current build, it has to let the smoke out some day not far off.
I wonder how quiet I could get it to run?
 

RayDunzl

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I wonder how quiet I could get it to run?

I'm an underclocker much of the time.

It'll run down at 800Mhz, and still be peppy for all but intensive stuff.

upload_2017-8-12_14-39-11.png

Pretty quiet here.
 
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Nice board, I've always been partial to Gigabyte. Is that todays answer to ever higher cpu numbers, ever more led lights on the MB? LOL
No, I bought it because it was on sale :). Intel is about to announce their Coffee Lake CPUs which unfortunately use a different pin out for the CPU, obsoleting this board. Very bad timing as far as needing a computer right now.
 

Sal1950

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Very bad timing as far as needing a computer right now.
Not for saving money it appears. $104.99 on sale at newegg right now and free shipping, plus it comes with a $10 rebate card so in the end it's 94.99.
If they ever pay off on the rebate. LOL
Ya getting a hot rod cpu or something more pedestrian?
 
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