UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review

[Killingbeans]

The conundrum is when there are differences in sound but no differences in measurements. What do we do then?

We determine whether or not there actually was a difference in sound. Eliminating bias. The difference will most likely disappear. Only in the odd case where it doesn't, is there need for reevaluating the testing procedures.

Your guys’ answer is to say the hearing is wrong. What if the machines aren’t the right machines?

What is the probability of sound being more than frequency, amplitude and phase? And what is the probability of the human hearing being a somewhat limited system, specialised at detecting things that give you a better chance at survival (Hint: Music is not high on that list)? Put those two on a balanced scale and guess which one plummets to the ground

 

[LTig]

Is there an apparatus on the market that allows me to listen with a measuring machine? I mean this sincerely. ls there something that translates sound waves into neurological impulses directly? That would be cool. Then I could bypass my ears completely, since they can’t be trusted. I assume I can trust my brain still, right? Just the part that reads measurement machines not the auditory cortex.

It's just the opposite. You could trust your ears but not your brain. Problem is that you need your brain to hear anything (not much need for ears without a brain I'd say). So bypassing the ears by direct injection into the hearing nerves wouldn't make things better except for people with hearing loss.

 

[Jinjuku]

But there is advertising. It's just not advertised as such. Isn't it the 80/20 rule that you use? As long as 80% of the reviews are from legitimate members sending products in, you can easily sneak 20% of reviews you're getting greased behind the scenes to do. And of course the amount you can charge is all based on Alexa traffic records. This is why you'll reviews anything as long as it will attract traffic and members.

So you are saying that Amir sells his review services on the down low? That is quite the accusation.

 

[March Audio]

I just read the threads on this thing over a Audiophool Style, and I have to say the head of that place is totally biased for Uptone.

As already mentioned you need to be wary of the commercial aspects of forum sites. I won't mention which, but another one closed a thread on the subject even though there was just nothing more than a technical discussion going on, not even heated arguing.

The forum on sites like that are part of a commercial exercise. They attract the audiophiles in to "discuss" their hobby when the real intention is to get them see the adverts and infomercials from manufacturers.

 

[March Audio]

Just a question. Have you never heard a difference between digital cables and switches? I ask that in earnest because it’s hard to fathom such a mass delusion. I’m not talking about assuming one cable or switch ‘sounds better’ because it’s more expensive or it looks fancier or has better add copy. I’m talking about just sitting at home and changing things around and hearing differences. Presumably this does happen. Presumably there are difference. I am honestly interested in where those differences come from. I have heard those differences but it didn’t result in any purchases or justifications for things already purchased. I just auditioned a bunch of stuff to see what it was all about. And there were differences. I guess I would have to ship you guys everything I auditioned for you to measure and explain why there are differences in sound. The conundrum is when there are differences in sound but no differences in measurements. What do we do then? Your guys’ answer is to say the hearing is wrong. What if the machines aren’t the right machines? I’m not trying to be provocative. Asking honestly as I try to decide on digital equipment. Oh and by the way I have no idea who Andre is? Do I sound like him or something?

Nope. Never.

It's not delusion they are suffering. It's the product of an effective marketing message on people wanting to believe, followed by totally faulty listening test procedures which guarantee to confirm their biases.

It's all very simple.

 

[March Audio]

As already mentioned you need to be wary of the commercial aspects of forum sites. I won't mention which, but another one closed a thread on the subject even though there was just nothing more than a technical discussion going on, not even heated arguing.

The forum on sites like that are part of a commercial exercise. They attract the audiophiles in to "discuss" their hobby when the real intention is to get them see the adverts and infomercials from manufacturers.

Talking to myself haha.

My posts there now have to be moderator approved obviously to prevent me from saying anything controversial.

Haha

 

[Thomas savage]

In my brief time here I’ve noticed the default position is to grant others the least charitable position possible.

Chris couldn’t have possibly started the site as a place to discuss his hobby, and allowed advertisers in to keep a growing site up and running. He must be involved in a secret cabal of audiophile manufacturers who lure people in to forums where they could *gasp* see an ad if their adblocker is turned off. I actually find that less off-putting then seeing virtue signalers wearing their “patreon” badge of honor, but to each their own.

This is a forum for audio enthusiasts to discuss audio. In all your posts I don't see any interest in that. Your agenda is clear .

Please go elsewhere.

Or alternatively start showing some actual interest in audio.

 

[ajawamnet]

When I posted earlier - I had no idea that this was serious... then I saw the review

As to the claims of "expensive 6 layer PCB"... well I just designed a 14 layer with 2oz copper. I guess that's even better, right?

Here - this is what you need to test an ethernet switch:

http://sifos.com/Products/PVA-3000-PhyView-Analyzer-10-100-1000Base-T-Test

You could always look at the eye pattern of the physical connection

Sifos shows that test at 20 minutes:

I design a lot of ethernet switches... from simple Micrel based ones (now Microchip) to fully managed ones Microsemi/Vitesse (also now Microchip.)

The best ethernet switch out there? - Used for financial markets... super low latency. Real expensive...

Just like the I9 intels that go for $20K

http://www.cpushack.com/2019/01/24/intel-everest-goes-to-auction/
"These are processors which Intel makes for very specific customers (in this case High Frequency stock trading). ....

They often have very little official information about them, and are sold at prices around $20,000 each. The latest in the series is the Intel Core i9-9990XE, with a max Turbo Frequency of 5.1GHz. .....

Intel isn’t likely deliberately making these chips scarce to increase the price, they are rather very rare speed bins for chips to attain. Out of thousands of chip’s tested, only a few will pass screening at this level of performance. These typically come from the center of a wafer (defects typically increase towards the edge of a wafer). It will be interesting to see what prices these attain, but then again, we may never know."

"It takes more than layers to make a good switch, Beavis"

 

[Darkweb]

This is a forum for audio enthusiasts to discuss audio. In all your posts I don't see any interest in that. Your agenda is clear .

Please go elsewhere.

Or alternatively start showing some actual interest in audio.

I’m simply engaging with the posts that are in front of me in this thread.

 

[JustPoo]

I can't find it, though I'm sure this has been covered somewhere on the forum by a legal expert. Where do companies like this stand when it comes to advertising laws?. Has there ever been any legal action taken against such a company? They're making factual claims that are provably false, in order to entice consumers to buy their products.

As it stands the word audiophile is so synonymous with "gullible moron" that when my brother in law (pro audio sales) saw my kit he said "oh, so you're an audiophile" and I was forced to answer "yes, but I don't believe in magic".

I genuinely don't understand why they're allowed to continue to operate in this way. I wish there were a landmark case against a woo pedlar that put the audio industry in the spotlight, and rather than the occasional "oh, aren't they eccentric" article appearing we'd see news of prosecutions instead. In the UK at least, when a "psychic" or similar peddles their wares there has to be a disclaimer essentially stating that they have no scientific proof for their claims. It doesn't stop some believers using their services, but it still may be a blow to snake oil sellers' sales to have to display that next to all of their wild claims. A high profile case to get the ball rolling would be lovely, I'll pop it on my list for Santa.

 

[Killingbeans]

I’m simply engaging with the posts that are in front of me in this thread.

You are saying that bullshitters with good intentions are more worthy of sympathy that non-bullshitters with a vengeance. Sure.

But bullshit is bullshit, no matter how you look at it.

Often threads on ASR will grind to a halt on a note of "Relax, it's just a hobby!" and people will mostly agree.

You have to keep in mind that a lot of the users in here are just fed up with having had obvious snake oil rubbed in their faces for years and years. It's understandable that the pitchforks are rattling a little easily. Just rest assured that sensibility is still a high priority

 

[amirm]

I’m simply engaging with the posts that are in front of me in this thread.

Well, don't. Build up some goodwill first, contribute something to the forum, then complain.

 

[decoRyder]

This is a post from an EtherRegen user describing his listening impressions:

I have the ER up and running in my system. First I must say that this this thing gets hot, so clearly it’s doing a great job cleaning my data that has mixed with the creepy guy next door downloading clown porn and instructions for home made mustard gas. Whew!

I certainly don't want to ridicule anyone, but this device seems to elicit a lot of comments like the one above.

 

[amirm]

I need to hire him to write jokes for the end of my reviews.

 

[Panelhead]

Just a question. Have you never heard a difference between digital cables and switches?

. I have tried a lot of digital cables. Do not have switches in the audio flow.
The digital cables usually sound the same to me. That is well made cables built to specification. With digital this is easy to determine.
With FireWire cables those without power lines sounded better. Tried many, the cheap Pearstone carried by BH Photo was as good as Granite, Oyaide, and some Mil- Spec.
Ever used USB much to connect dac to computer. But was given a Light Harmonic cable that worked as well as the gimme’s.
I use an optical Thunderbolt cable to connect interface to computer. Mainly length, but it offers galvanic isolation. When testing it doesn’t es not effect measurements. At least with dac next to computer to allow comparison to 1 meter copper cable. Use a 10 meter Corning optical.
Definitely hear differences in coax cables. Built Canare, Gotham, Sommer, and others with Canare crimp on plugs. According to many he Canare measure the best. But the Gotham sound nicer. Maybe be the lower spec build is creating distortions. Since Benchmark tests cables and uses Canare I use that to connect the Day Sequerra to the interface for local radio.
Love playing with cables. But cheap ones. The stupid priced cables are of no interest.
USB is the most offensive to me. A cable built to USB 2.0 is cheap. Then there expensive cables with; no shielding, no twisted pair, Twin plugs to deliver power in one jack and data to another, and gizmo grounding schemes. My advice is get the shortest that easily connects to two devices, has the certification symbol, and comes from a known brand. Should be perfect.

 

[solderdude]

Presumably there are difference. I am honestly interested in where those differences come from. I have heard those differences but it didn’t result in any purchases or justifications for things already purchased. I just auditioned a bunch of stuff to see what it was all about. And there were differences. I guess I would have to ship you guys everything I auditioned for you to measure and explain why there are differences in sound.

There were differences heard because you tested incorrectly. You must have some audiophile friends. Let one or more come over.
Now let them listen and you do cable swapping. But instead of actually swapping cables you just pretend to and tell the 'audience' you swapped the cable and let them listen. Do this a couple of times. Note the results.
You just do not change anything you just merely SAY you did. Fun experiment which I did more than once.
Highly educational and will explain the reason you hear certain things MUCH more clearly than I or anyone else trying to explain you.

You must test your own hearing and those of others BEFORE you start using your ears as a guide.
There are many ways to do this and will tech you more about audio than reading and debating.

 

[mvil]

I’m simply engaging with the posts that are in front of me in this thread.

Engage your brain instead.

 

[g29]

By the way, I need to ship the Ether Regen out soon. So if you need something else tested, you better speak up quickly!

Did you do a bandwidth test to see how it performs as a switch (maximum sustained bandwith for large network file/directory copies, etc.) ?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Time to play devil's advocate for a moment and risk blowback from the MRA crowd here:

What's the difference between what Matrix Audio and Uptone Audio are really doing?

By many people's point of view here, the $3,000 Matrix DAC with the sub-human noise floor should be indistinguishable from the $100 one that still has a noise floor well below audibility. Is the Matrix DAC "snake oil" since it provides the same function as the $100 Topping DAC?

Uptone Audio has built a network switch to spec with what they feel are superior quality parts to an off the shelf switch, and measurements show it to function exactly the same as the cheapo. If the low noise floor measurements Amir gushes over on his lab equipment don't amount to a hill of beans in actual listening, why is one considered "snake oil" and the other the talk of the town around here?

I rather shake my head at the need for the question. I get the point if one wishes to equate the two. One does nothing you'll hear, and the other does nothing. Still does this need to be explained?

An approach like that one of Matrix audio can improve the resulting playback. Maybe in this one product they have gone beyond audibility (which isn't a bad thing at all), but the approach to get there has to correlate with the rules of the real physical world. This approach in another area, maybe building a power amp, can lead to products that do result in an improved user's experience in an audible way.

Uptone, their products are inaudible, but not due to a great design approach, they are inaudible because they don't do anything that needs doing. Their successful designs aren't successful by the rules of the real physical world. They are only successful in a psychologically manipulative way that drains funds from customers without any genuine physical improvement. Can uptone extend their approach and create an amplifier that genuinely improves sound in an audible way? No, it can't. It lives in a manufactured cloud of confusion that leads no where.

 

[Tks]

Just a question. Have you never heard a difference between digital cables and switches? I ask that in earnest because it’s hard to fathom such a mass delusion. I’m not talking about assuming one cable or switch ‘sounds better’ because it’s more expensive or it looks fancier or has better add copy. I’m talking about just sitting at home and changing things around and hearing differences. Presumably this does happen. Presumably there are difference. I am honestly interested in where those differences come from. I have heard those differences but it didn’t result in any purchases or justifications for things already purchased. I just auditioned a bunch of stuff to see what it was all about. And there were differences. I guess I would have to ship you guys everything I auditioned for you to measure and explain why there are differences in sound. The conundrum is when there are differences in sound but no differences in measurements. What do we do then? Your guys’ answer is to say the hearing is wrong. What if the machines aren’t the right machines? I’m not trying to be provocative. Asking honestly as I try to decide on digital equipment. Oh and by the way I have no idea who Andre is? Do I sound like him or something?

Let's go over this one by one.

ask that in earnest because it’s hard to fathom such a mass delusion. I’m not talking about assuming one cable or switch ‘sounds better’ because it’s more expensive or it looks fancier or has better add copy. I’m talking about just sitting at home and changing things around and hearing differences. Presumably this does happen. Presumably there are difference. I am honestly interested in where those differences come from.

Yes it's very easy not only fathom, but outright claim it's simply a delusion, but if not delusion, then a simply case of placebo, and/or sighted bias.

I have heard those differences but it didn’t result in any purchases or justifications for things already purchased. I just auditioned a bunch of stuff to see what it was all about. And there were differences. I guess I would have to ship you guys everything I auditioned for you to measure and explain why there are differences in sound.

No evidence to the contrary have been presented to dissuade us as this being anything than simple psychological bias.

The conundrum is when there are differences in sound but no differences in measurements. What do we do then? Your guys’ answer is to say the hearing is wrong. What if the machines aren’t the right machines? I’m not trying to be provocative. Asking honestly as I try to decide on digital equipment

What then? Oh this is super easy to answer. When people proclaim to observe a phenomena, a phenomena that is evading all forms of detection, the natural question for folks thus then becomes: does it even exist in that case? Let's say we assume it exists, but we want to test it just to be sure it does exist. We then set up human trials. Anyone making proclamations affirming they hear something that evades the rest of science shall be brought to demonstrate this ability in double, or even the most rigorous triple blind tests. If these folks (heck even one person) confirms with his performance he is able to detect this difference we can't see. Then indeed we have now a whole new field of science that is birthed that will be working to discover this unknown factor and why it evades us.

The reason most here are skeptical as I am, is because I don't know when such a case occurred in audio in the recent past. It's fine to doubt measurements, as the tests can be conducted with various errors and such. But you have audiophiles who also doubt themselves being when being tested, but were very boastful prior to being called to prove their claims. Coming up with excuses like "oh I couldn't do the test properly because I felt pressured" or "I was too hungry that day" or "I was sick" or "my Chakra and zodiac sign wasn't in alignment".

These type of people don't understand the simple fact that, the more excuses you present toward unfulfilling a claim or requirement asked of you - the worse the probability of the claim being true in the first place. For example:

If I tell you personally, that I have a German Shepard right now over this forum. You and most other people would assume I do, and even may wonder about his traits of when I got him, or how old, and from whom in case you also were interested in a dog.

But if I told you I have 20 billion worth of US Treasury Bonds in my mailbox.. You would instantly roll your eyes, and instantly demand proof of such an extraordinary claim. And if I kept saying "I'll show you some other day", or "sorry my camera was busted, so I couldn't text you the image", and then another time "sorry they're not in the mailbox anymore, they're in a P.O. Box at the local post office", and then some other time "sorry I sent them to a Swiss safety deposit box for safe keeping". Your mind automatically believes me less and less with each excuse I conjure.

The only difference between these two scenario's is the prior probability, and the magnitude of the claim. Prior probability is calculated automatically in your mind "hmm many people have dogs, no need to ask for insane proof that this guy has a dog". While the second scenario "never has a case in history occurred where someone with that much money would ever tell a random stranger on the internet, and then have it in his mailbox, and then make up all those excuses of why he couldn't show me at all those times, and yet in the end that was all the truth".

Audiophools fall into this latter category, making claims of which there is essentially no prior historical precedent, and always coming up with excuses of even when the electronic analyzers are put away, and their own ears are asked to demonstrate the difference exists (never mind actually quantifying the difference, out of them we can't even prove the phenomena even exists sadly). Totally unware each excuse they pile on, contributes to their claims actually proving to be false more than true in terms of probability.


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So there you go, and for anyone else wondering: "what now, I hear a difference, and the 10's of thousands of dollars worth of analyzers don't, where do we go from here". Well you can start by proving your claim, and then we'll worry about the level of difference our analyzers are incapable of measuring.