UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review

[SIY]

Question to ask is, if the relatively small number of customers were to have seen the measurements first, would they have still bought the unit?

Of course. The story is what they're buying.

"Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired." - Jonathan Swift

 

[jtwrace]

John S specifically said the update had nothing to do with SQ, and was done for technical reasons not related to SQ. He did not claim it changed SQ, he said it didn't.

That's not true. See below bold

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...re-moved-here/?do=findComment&comment=1008631

This is not true, the changes were NOT made for SQ purposes at all. Here is the full story on the technical side of this, do with it as you will.

Quite a while ago while working on the opticalRendu I noticed the switch chip (the same switch chip was being used at that time) the connection to the CPU was going up and down, many times. I could not figure out what it was. Then an errata sheet came out for the switch chip which talked about the EEE bug, I wrote the code for the workaround on the main processor and fed that to the switch chip, It worked.

The EtherREGEN uses the same chip as I had originally on the oR (I picked it for the ER, but used it for prototyping on the oR since I knew it well). At this point the ER did not exist in the final form, it was several different boards trying out different parts of the system. I had not seen the EEE problem at all, probably because I was not testing it with anything that supported EEE. After I finally got the functionality for the ER working and I had the whole system up and running I wrote the code to send the workaround to the switch chip, it was much more complicated because I had to do it for 4 ports instead of one, it was also written for a completely different processor and environment. Somewhere along the line I made a mistake in that code that didn't actually implement the workaround, but I didn't know that at the time. Since I couldn't make the EEE problem happen, (it only happens for some boards and some equipment), I didn't know it wasn't working. Neither my testing, nor Alex's or the beta testers have the problem.

The problem only showed up when the ER went out into the field with enough different configurations that some people started having the problem. Remember that at this point I thought I had the workaround for the EEE stuff in every ER out there. It took some time and a lot of looking at the code to realize there was a bug in the code. While in the process I found a new errata sheet for the switch chip that added some new problems for the chip and workarounds for them.

At this point I fixed the EEE workaround code and found out that that it actually CAUSED dropouts every time an RJ45 A port connected. The connection would go up, then down, then back up. I could not figure this out, it didn't make any sense. I then tried adding the workarounds for the other two errata issues, both of which were supposedly only for rare "corner cases" which should only occur for long cables. One was for transmit, it increased the transmit amplitude very slightly, and the other was for receive which increased the probability of receiving very weak signals. Viola! The up down up behavior went away. I listened to it for quite some time with no problems, but did notice a small improvement in SQ, I still have no idea why.

Well that is it. This was all done in an attempt to improve connectivity issues. The sound change was not something that was intended, it was not something that was "tuned" it just showed up as a result of adding the workarounds for problems that already existed in the chip. I still have no idea how these changes could be affecting SQ.

John S.

 

[ZgSTar]

Wait wait wait... Did you say Matrix I???
Are you working on a review? Id like to know more about it in time to buy it for Christmas?

 

[jtwrace]

No. He stopped doing that a year or two ago and is now totally independent, apparently mostly designing audio related products.

Yes, you can read about it here

 

[Matias]

Wait wait wait... Did you say Matrix I???
Are you working on a review? Id like to know more about it in time to buy it for Christmas?

Matrix i was used on this test, the dashboard is from it running on ethernet, and its measurements are excellent.

 

[Soniclife]

Quite. I have certainly had arguments with retailers in the UK that it's their responsibility to deal with and send faulty products back to the manufacturer.

Me too, they don't like to be reminded of it, and the grunt level shop assistants are either ignorant or trained to deny it. One of the best lines of attack is if you bought on a credit card, merchants are wary of getting chargebacks, and the credit companies seem to be on their customers side in my experience.

 

[Vovgan]

You guys are really going overboard with your criticism. ... If you want to criticize the product, feel free. But why drag all this other irrelevant stuff into the discussion? Even Amir hasn't said the products are poorly designed or made ... John Swenson works on a royalty basis per unit the designs, lives far away, and isn't an employee. It's a small business, so Alex built a work and assembly area next to his house. What's wrong with that?

You must be kidding me. One cannot even start to criticise the product without appealing to the claims about its performance (you don’t criticize rocks), but claims are made by concrete people. If the product does not live up to the maker's claims, is it reasonable to criticise the product but to say nothing about the man behind the claims? Is it reasonable for instance to conclude that although smoking is bad for health, we should withhold our judgement of the executives in tobacco companies who deliberately confused the public about this in the 60's and 70's?

This product is demonstrated not to perform what it is advertised to do - "ethernet switch ... capable of producing surprisingly audible sonic improvements in fine music systems"), and so the man behind it is either a crook or incompetent or both. (can still be a great son / husband / golfer though).

 

[mansr]

I can't wrap my mind of how such a product could be conceived. I just can't believe the intention was to so blatantly scam the customers,

You must be new to audio.

 

[Soniclife]

Is this part of the seemingly wider social issue of science denial? Is it part of the same human aspect that drives religous faith?

It's fascinating isn't it, I think this is rife thought society, and I think all of us probably demonstrate it daily without realising, because it's rare to be challenged with evidence on our beliefs.

 

[mansr]

The device itself looks quite interesting on the inside and it's definitely completely different that an ordinary switch. I am somehow trying to see if the final price justifies the internals and the custom power supply.

I like to see those couple of isolator chips (optocouplers maybe?) and the very low-noise LT3042, so theoretically this device, at least, should not inject it's own noise into the LAN cable.

Too bad that nothing good shows in the measurements and, of course, price is probably three times more than I would probably expect.

As I mentioned in the other thread (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-etherregen.9260/post-275661), that PCB layout leaves me with some doubts.

 

[Soniclife]

You guys are really going overboard with your criticism.
Alex (Uptone owner) lives in a rural area and runs his own business. He has a couple of employees that help with assembly and shipping. John Swenson works on a royalty basis per unit the designs, lives far away, and isn't an employee. It's a small business, so Alex built a work and assembly area next to his house. What's wrong with that?

FWIW I didn't read Ray's post as critical, just some information about the company.

 

[pozz]

Of course. The story is what they're buying.

"Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired." - Jonathan Swift

Puts the onus on the manufacturer, of course. Although I hope at least a few customers would have been dissuaded from their purchase.

 

[slingshot]

The EtherREGEN is cheap at $640. This one is $1,900 with all of the options:

https://audiobacon.net/2019/04/05/sotm-snh-10g-audiophile-ethernet-switch-review/5/

This network switch is about $4,700. https://darko.audio/2018/03/for-the-audiophile-who-has-everything-telegartners-m12-switch-gold/

I would love a review of it.

 

[pozz]

Wow. I have been discussing this elsewhere. It's utterly incredible the ability of some to deny factual evidence. It's utterly mind boggling.

You can politely and patiently explain the reasons, the cause and effect (or lack of) and then they turn round and say "but you haven't heard it".

Why is it that some are incapable of vaguely critical thought?

You really can't get much more simple than pulling the ethernet lead out with the music continuing perfectly to demonstrate just how divorced the switch is from what comes out the dac. Yet some will point blank deny this is any kind of evidence.

Is this part of the seemingly wider social issue of science denial? Is it part of the same human aspect that drives religous faith? Does this simply go generally hand in hand with a personality that tends to be an audiophile - someone that will have a tendancy to obsess over improvements in the system instead of actually listening to music?

I am honestly confounded by what I see. It's borderline irrational behaviour. People will admit they have no knowledge or competence in an area but will still be adamant that their opinion should be counted above those that do and the evidence they present.

The uncharitable part of me says well if they really are that stupid then let them be taken advantage of, or even wonders what worthless Audiophile trinket I could release to take their money.

I definitely wouldn't put it down to human nature. It's a confrontation with an industry that has created the sort of public it wants to sell to.

 

[March Audio]

I definitely wouldn't put it down to human nature. It's a confrontation with an industry that has created the sort of public it wants to sell to.

Well yes there is no doubt that the industry has encouraged this sort of thinking, but surely certain people have to be susceptible to this to allow it to happen?

There are obviously subjects I have little knowledge of but I don't fall hook line and sinker for related marketing. I still have a critical thought process.

 

[pozz]

Well yes there is no doubt that the industry has encouraged this sort of thinking, but surely certain people have to be susceptible to this to allow it to happen?

There are obviously subjects I have little knowledge of but I don't fall hook line and sinker for related marketing. I still have a critical thought process.

It's a weird thing honestly. The kinds of people that go for the outlandish audiophile gear are well-educated and critical in other aspects of their lives.

 

[pkane]

@Opus111 commented on AS that a more complete measurement of ER would include a measurement of a full audio system down-stream of the DAC (preamp and an amp). Don't see this mattering much, unless there is some ground loop that such an isolation can break. It'll have to be a ground loop formed by the source (PC) and some downstream component, such as the preamp. Any thoughts on testing it this way?

 

[jtwrace]

It's a weird thing honestly. The kinds of people that go for the outlandish audiophile gear are well-educated and critical in other aspects of their lives.

And even more bizarre use science in their daily professional lives (doctors, lawyers etc) then walk through their door at home and POOF, it's all gone.

 

[March Audio]

@Opus111 commented on AS that a more complete measurement of ER would include a measurement of a full audio system down-stream of the DAC (preamp and an amp). Don't see this mattering much, unless there is some ground loop that such an isolation can break. It'll have to be a ground loop formed by the source (PC) and some downstream component, such as the preamp. Any thoughts on testing it this way?

I don't see it myself.
Ethernet is isolated, but maybe not perfectly at higher frequencies, so the faintest theoretical possibility of a problem.

However you can bypass all that messing about by simply pulling the ethernet plug and allowing the system to continue playing from its buffers. If there was any problem being induced through the connection, loop, noise, whatever, it would now be eliminated. If no difference shows in the dac output there is no problem.

It's spectacularly simple. Some People are just desperately searching for a reason/mechanism to show this product can work and justify their beliefs.

 

[mansr]

@Opus111 commented on AS that a more complete measurement of ER would include a measurement of a full audio system down-stream of the DAC (preamp and an amp). Don't see this mattering much, unless there is some ground loop that such an isolation can break. It'll have to be a ground loop formed by the source (PC) and some downstream component, such as the preamp. Any thoughts on testing it this way?

A standard Ethernet transformer already breaks any ground loops. As for other components, I can only the see the effects of whatever device diminishing as the distance from it increases. If the DAC output is unchanged, it is extremely unlikely that a subsequent amp will suddenly show a difference.