UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review

[tomjtx]

Good report.
Extra credit question, was it single or double blind?

That was interesting.
Blind testing the ER against a "generic" Netgear switch.....two of us were not able to consistently pick one switch over the other but there was a slight preference for the ER in the overall results. We just could not reliably pick the ER out each time. Doing a "sighted" test I did have a preference for the ER each time.

I have Kii Three DSP active speakers that up-sample the incoming data and process it with proprietary DACs / DSP modules. They sound very good with just about any input. The built-in power filtering renders the Kii immune to external conditioning and cable swaps.

Bottom line: The "sighted bias" is a real phenomenon that must be addressed when testing. Also, audiophiles like to tweak their systems which explains the availability of all the gadgets to try - some more effective than others. It's a hobby that we enjoy.

Sounds good, I’m curious, are you thinking to return your er as a result of your test?

 

[tomjtx]

I also have the Kiis and the Kii Control. The Kiis are one of the things that have helped me realize that many of these audiophile "truths" aren't true. The Kii control is galvanically isolated and seems pretty immune to source. The system is extremely revealing, so any difference can be heard. I'm now running the system without any add on devices (just USB direct from server) because I found they made no difference - at least not one I could consistently pick out unsighted. And guess what: It's much more fun just to listen to music and stop worrying about how to tweak your setup.

Although the truth is I might add in a streamer again - not for SQ, but for networking and convenience reasons.

I have the Kiis with controller as well. I ran usb from my MacBook Pro. I didn’t like running a 15 foot usb across my living room floor So I tried a uRendu. I thought it sounded better. althoughI would have kept the uRendu anyway to avoid the cable.
I “think“ I hear an improvement with the ether Regen but I seriously doubt I could identify it blind. Franky, that would be a lot of work that I dońt think is worth doing to save 640.00. IOW, I have no problem indulging in ocasional audiofoolery if the price is low enough.

 

[firedog]

I have the Kiis with controller as well. I ran usb from my MacBook Pro. I didn’t like running a 15 foot usb across my living room floor So I tried a uRendu. I thought it sounded better. althoughI would have kept the uRendu anyway to avoid the cable.
I “think“ I hear an improvement with the ether Regen but I seriously doubt I could identify it blind. Franky, that would be a lot of work that I dońt think is worth doing to save 640.00. IOW, I have no problem indulging in ocasional audiofoolery if the price is low enough.

Yeah, I totally get that. The Sonore streamers have a really nice set of features that give a lot of possibilities for playback. I personally use mostly Roon, some LMS, and also HQPlayer at times. So the Sonore streamers are very convenient for all these (and additional) kinds of playback software. So even if you don't think they improve SQ, they can be worth it to a lot of people for the software and networking features.

 

[tomjtx]

Yeah, I totally get that. The Sonore streamers have a really nice set of features that give a lot of possibilities for playback. I personally use mostly Roon, some LMS, and also HQPlayer at times. So the Sonore streamers are very convenient for all these (and additional) kinds of playback software. So even if you don't think they improve SQ, they can be worth it to a lot of people for the software and networking features.

Works well for me. Especially since I don't want to have a dedicated server. I like the portability of my Macbook.

 

[g29]

There appears to be competition on the horizon.

Fidelizer EtherStream Network Switch

 

[amirm]

There appears to be competition on the horizon.

Fidelizer EtherStream Network Switch

So he buys a Cisco switch for $68, changes a couple of capacitor and one clock and sells it for US $395? I guess if you are going to build something that does nothing useful, it is best to spend least amount of energy on it. In that regard, he beats the heck out of UpTone! To wit, he is getting the same testimonials so clearly what UpTone had cooked up is not necessary.

 

[mansr]

So he buys a Cisco switch for $68

Better, he buys an obsolete Cisco switch. I wonder where he's getting them.

 

[Killingbeans]

Speculation: He found some pallets full of them in a forgotten corner of a warehouse and bought them for $1 a pop

 

[jasonk]

Better, he buys an obsolete Cisco switch. I wonder where he's getting them.

just two of the many in the UK...........................

https://theithut.com/cisco-small-bu...gabit-ethernet-10-100-1000-black-sg110d-08-uk
https://www.stuff-uk.net/p-2178383....MI-KCcvte95gIVyrTtCh20egsvEAkYASABEgIU8vD_BwE

Around $40 to $50 to you

This is just the UK, the third world supply in second user Cisco is massive

 

[krabapple]

Wow. You really have a beef with this Alex guy. Don't see why attacking his business is important, but whatever. I'm more curious about all this listening bias stuff. So is the implication that all you can hear is measurements? I guess I mean if I like the sound of a DAC is that because it measures better? So if I were in the market for a DAC (or any component I guess), then I should just buy the one that measures best? This is a serious question. Thanks

Wow. You've really never heard of cognitive or perceptual bias, ever? Why do you think things like blind taste tests, blind auditions, etc., exist? Just to keep people busy?

If I were selling audiophile quackery, you'd be my target market.

 

[tmtomh]

Wow. You really have a beef with this Alex guy. Don't see why attacking his business is important, but whatever. I'm more curious about all this listening bias stuff. So is the implication that all you can hear is measurements? I guess I mean if I like the sound of a DAC is that because it measures better? So if I were in the market for a DAC (or any component I guess), then I should just buy the one that measures best? This is a serious question. Thanks

I can't say what you should do, but if I were in the market for a DAC, I would not simply or literally buy the one that measures best - but I would act in the spirit of buying the one that measures best. Specifically, I would narrow down the choices to ones that are within my budget. Then I would look at each DAC's available inputs and any other features I might want. Then I would look at measurements, and while I would not necessarily choose the one with the very best measurements, I would certainly rule out any models whose measurements fall below a certain threshold.

That threshold is determined by (a) my best understanding of the minimum specs for transparent sound given human hearing/perception; and (b) what levels of performance are available at my price point. Given the multitude of very well-performing, affordable DACs these days, I see no reason to settle for anything with SINAD below, say, -105dB (preferably -110 or more), along with flat frequency response, at least 19 bits' worth of linearity, and excellent jitter and IM distortion performance.

So I'd be left with several affordable, well-performing DACs with the inputs and other features I want. At that point I would investigate apparent build quality, design of the unit and its visual interface, and specific prices. I would get the DAC that hit my "sweet spot" of price, build quality, and visual/interface design.

But all of this is predicated on two beliefs that I hold, based on my listening experience and my understanding of how electronics work:

1. High fidelity (lack of coloration, distortion, nonlinearity, or "voicing") is consistent with me "liking the sound" of a piece of equipment; and
2. Measurements, when taken properly and when used to measure all the main aspects of a unit's functionality, are a reliable indicator of fidelity.

If you don't believe both of these things - or you're not sure if you do - then the process of choosing a DAC can become much more complicated, usually more expensive, and IMHO much more of a crapshoot.

As I've noted elsewhere (maybe in this thread, can't recall), I think things get less cut-and-dried when it comes to transducers (aka speakers for a listening/playback setup) - measurements are still key for me with those, but I would never buy speakers without listening to them first unless they were relatively easy to ship and there was a 100% money back guarantee with return shipping cost included.

 

[firedog]

I can't say what you should do, but if I were in the market for a DAC, I would not simply or literally buy the one that measures best - but I would act in the spirit of buying the one that measures best. Specifically, I would narrow down the choices to ones that are within my budget. Then I would look at each DAC's available inputs and any other features I might want. Then I would look at measurements, and while I would not necessarily choose the one with the very best measurements, I would certainly rule out any models whose measurements fall below a certain threshold.

That threshold is determined by (a) my best understanding of the minimum specs for transparent sound given human hearing/perception; and (b) what levels of performance are available at my price point. Given the multitude of very well-performing, affordable DACs these days, I see no reason to settle for anything with SINAD below, say, -105dB (preferably -110 or more), along with flat frequency response, at least 19 bits' worth of linearity, and excellent jitter and IM distortion performance.

So I'd be left with several affordable, well-performing DACs with the inputs and other features I want. A that point I would investigate apparent build quality, design of the unit and its visual interface, and specific prices. I would get the DAC that hit my "sweet spot" of price, build quality, and visual/interface design.

But all of this is predicated on two beliefs that I hold, based on my listening experience and my understanding of how electronics work:

1. High fidelity (lack of coloration, distortion, nonlinearity, or "voicing") is consistent with me "liking the sound" of a piece of equipment; and
2. Measurements, when taken properly and when used to measure all the main aspects of a unit's functionality, are a reliable indicator of fidelity.

If you don't believe both of these things - or you're not sure if you do - then the process of choosing a DAC can become much more complicated, usually more expensive, and IMHO much more of a crapshoot.

As I've noted elsewhere (maybe in this thread, can't recall), I think things get less cut-and-dried when it comes to transducers (aka speakers for a listening/playback setup) - measurements are still key for me with those, but I would never buy speakers without listening to them first unless they were relatively easy to ship and there was a 100% money back guarantee with return shipping cost included.

I liked this post, but I'd add one thing: Similar measuring DACs may sound different for no other reason than the upsampling and filtering they use. Some DACs do whatever is built into the chip, some have their own proprietary filtering. This can noticeably flavor the sound. It won't totally change the sound of the DAC, but it could change the sound enough that you prefer one to the other. There's also software that lets you change the filtering in the digital realm, before the signal gets to your DAC (if you are on a server/HD source).

 

[Blumlein 88]

I liked this post, but I'd add one thing: Similar measuring DACs may sound different for no other reason than the upsampling and filtering they use. Some DACs do whatever is built into the chip, some have their own proprietary filtering. This can noticeably flavor the sound. It won't totally change the sound of the DAC, but it could change the sound enough that you prefer one to the other. There's also software that lets you change the filtering in the digital realm, before the signal gets to your DAC (if you are on a server/HD source).

I believe most of the reason various filters alter the sound is down to the frequency response differences they make. I'm not sure there is any other reason. Be nice to have files set up with different filtering which was EQ'd to compensate to flat, and see if anyone can hear a difference. Do the files in a 384 khz container, and filtering at frequency effectively the same as what happens at lower sampling rates.

 

[tmtomh]

@firedog and @Blumlein 88 - great points RE filtering.

Based on your comments, I would amend my long comment above to add that I would want to factor in filtering to my DAC purchase. For me personally, I would not need selectable filters on my DAC of choice - but if it did not have selectable filters, I would want to buy a unit whose filter was a relatively "fast" one that did not produce excessive aliasing in the audible range.

DAC filters are one of the few aspects of digital music reproduction where in sighted, subjective listening I hear a slight difference between filters, even though I'm not convinced that I could pick out differences in a blind test. (Although my tests with my Oppo UDP-205 are semi-blind, since it has 6 or 7 filters and I can never keep track of which is which in the moment when I'm switching among them and listening - I have to check back afterwards to remind myself which was which.)

If frequency response were the only real difference, that would make me wonder even more, because most filters will impact frequency response only at the high end, often above 15 or 16kHz, and I'm not convinced that small changes that high up can be heard (at least by me!).

On the other hand, I recently read an article talking about how slow, leaky digital filters (like the MQA ones) that purport to correct phase anomalies produced by more conventional, faster filters, actually mess with transients in an audible, reproducible manner that can be linked to the mathematics of how the filters work. Now that does comport with what I hear when I switch filters on my Oppo UDP-205 - the slower filters do tend to produce a "softer" sound that to my ears does not sound like high-end roll off. I find this softer sound sounds very pleasant for about 30-60 seconds, and then quickly gets frustrating and boring - at which point I switch back to the Oppo's default filter.

 

[jtwrace]

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167296.msg1775761#msg1775761

Just a cautionary note for anyone wishing to purchase anything from Uptone Audio.

Over the past 3 or so years I have owned an ISO Regen, two LPS 1's and two LPS 1.2's. When they work they are OK. However, when they do not, you cannot really count on any meaningful support from Uptone Audio - under warranty or not - and even more so if you are not in the US. One of my LPS 1's failed during the warranty period after less than a year of use. It would not output anything. I contacted Alex Crespi of Uptone who arranged for a replacement. I shipped the faulty LPS 1 back (costly). I received a replacement in about a month. The replacement I received had dings on the case that were not there in the first place. I just chalked it up to shipping issues. Two months later, the replaced unit failed again. It would not light up. It had more than a year left under warranty. I contacted Uptone again who requested I ship it back again for replacement. However, they discouraged it and proposed a credit of US$185 towards the purchase of a new LPS 1.2 in lieu of the warranty on the unit which faltered so quickly after it was replaced. Upon further questioning and correspondence with Uptone, it came to light that they had not repaired the unit I had sent in for warranty replacement with new parts. Instead they had replaced the board with parts culled from used and returned units previously sent in for trade in or repair purposes. In short, the warranty is tantamount to having your unit replaced with a used one which may or may not have been faulty in the first place, which they claim to have "tested". It is no surprise that the unit faltered so quickly after their supposed warranty replacement then. As such, their so-called warranty replacement is pretty much flawed. Alex got defensive and quoted some self-derived metric about the failure rates of their products being extremely low and put the cause of successive failure in my units down to my bad luck. He also said that I had electrically damaged the unit which is baffling since I had used it only with their supplied OEM Meanwell switching power supply which still works fine up till today. To date, in the last 20 or so years of being in the hi fi hobby, these Uptone products are the only ones to have malfunctioned so badly.

Wishing to cut my losses and to avoid having to ship the faulty unit back to the US at costly charges when the "warranty" replacement would most likely fail again shortly, I paid the remainder towards a brand new LPS 1.2. Alex made it clear that he would not assist with repair of the faulty LPS 1 and I disposed of it.

I received a shipment of the LPS 1.2. However, when I unpacked it, the unit had a clear rattling noise when removed from the box. Upon closer inspection, there was a slight scratch on the front chassis plate and the screws were badly stripped. It was pretty clear that Alex had shipped me a used unit or one that had escaped their seemingly lax quality control. I contacted Uptone immediately and requested that they make arrangements for their carrier to collect the unit from me for return to them and replacement of a brand new unit to me. Alex admitted to their negligence citing size slippages and disparities in their OEM case specifications which caused the misfit and rattling noise and worn out Torx screwdrivers stripping the screws. He was certainly aware of the issues affecting the unit I was shipped. However, he refused to do anything about it. He suggested that he would send me some screws and that I open up the unit myself and mount some electrical tape inside the case to stop the rattling noise. Again, he seemed to be fully aware of the issue and how to fix it. Unfortunately, I am not technically inclined nor do I own a Torx screwdriver. To render those fixes I would have to pay a technician to do so. This is rich considering that I had paid for a new and finished product and was shipped a used and/or damaged one. I wrote back to insist on a replacement unit being sent to me and that Uptone arrange to cover the return shipping costs to themselves. Again, Alex refused steadfastly and got hostile, saying that I was taking advantage of them. How exactly am I taking advantage? I paid full price for a new and finished product - that is all I expect, no more and no less. Alex also stated that he did not wish to lose any money on this sale even though Uptone offers the best customer service possible. His final offer was that I return the LPS 1.2 to them at my own cost and that he would refund me the US$250 I had paid meaning I would have to write off the US$185 credit value on the disposed LPS 1 which he is contractually obliged to repair but had refused to assist me with.

In this whole experience with Uptone, Alex strikes me as someone who is simply full of excuses. He pays lip service to providing good customer service but it is really just marketing talk. When it comes to the crunch, he fails to deliver but instead makes excuses and puts the blame on anyone but Uptone and himself. Outrageously, he even believes in his own self manufactured press. I recall earlier correspondence with him on why the Uptone ISO Regen would disconnect from my DAC for no reason, requiring that I unplug and replug the DC cable from the Uptone LPS 1.2 for it to work again. Not knowing that I was powering it with a LPS 1.2, he began by questioning the power supply I used. When told it was a LPS 1.2, he blamed the issue on the Silanna chip Uptone used in the ISO Regen - after all, it was an Uptone supply and he could not blame that anymore. I mean you manufactured this product, sourced and supposedly tested the parts and then sold it to the customer as a finished product for good money. The sheer lack of responsibility, ethics and professionalism!

As an example of Alex being purely a marketing act, you can see on the Computer Audiophile forum how he derides Sonore's optical module and Optical Rendu, since Uptone now makes a competing product. Recall, Uptone came into existence making derivative products such as USB fixers and power supplies to be used with Sonore's series of streamers - the hypocrisy of it all.

I appreciate that others may have had a good experience dealing with Uptone Audio but unfortunately, that hasn't been the case with me. Uptone strikes me as a bucket shop. There are lots of cottage industries and artisanal products in hi fi and that is fine and good, so long as they are run with honesty, integrity and professionalism and not at the expense of unsuspecting customers. Pete of Triode Wire Labs is a great example of a fine one man show company who provides great customer service. Uptone is definitely NOT - YMMV!

 

[g29]

I see some new marketing opportunities on the horizon. Blacker blacks and improved tones.

 

[Superdad]

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-135#post-625209

Don't let your heads explode.

 

[Wes]

Why would empty opinions from know-nuthing subjectivists harm a head?

 

[jtwrace]

Blah blah blah....all subjective which is useless given the premise of this forum and what @amirm has invested into it.

 

[dc655321]

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-135#post-625209

Don't let your heads explode.

I stopped at "Audiophile switch comparisons:". There is really nowhere to go starting from that premise.