Upmixing - where are we at? Have people compared upmixers?

[sfogg]

As Mr Dressler said, and which was quoted earlier:

"...especially in the case of upmixing, there is no right or wrong way to do it, it's all about taste and preference and having several options is a great idea if you can stand it."

ie. Taste in upmixers is subjective.
I find it weird that most of this thread is dominated by praise for old/outdated technologies, and disdain for the new.

No, the praise is for the surround processing that was built specifically for music.

I think that it would be odd if upmixing technology had got worse, rather than better. My 2c.

Much of the new tech is focused on different goals. And there are plenty of examples of 'new' things being worse. Often because they ignored the psychoacoustics of hearing. Rear centers for example ignore the problem of rear to front inversions. Which mean the result of using a rear center is psychoacoustically the exact opposite of why you put it there in the first place.

Edit: The referenced interview literally talks about the latest DTS modes going backwards.....

 

[Chr1]

There's no praise for anything in the quote in my post. He simply states that upmixers are a matter of taste.

I am not sure what different goals you are referring to, but I am still of the belief that upmixing technology has improved with time. Again, each to their own. YMMV.

 

[sfogg]

There's no praise for anything in the quote. He states that upmixers are a matter of taste.

I was responding to your dig that some are giving praise for old/outdated technologies. No, the praise is for the surround processing that was built for music.

I am not sure what different goals you are referring to and I am still of the belief that upmixing technology has improved with time. Again, each to their own. YMMV.

Surround processing/upmixing is not the same for music and music. If you optimize a mode for movies it is at the cost of music. If you optimize for music you aren't optimizing for movies. It is why things like PLII had a Music and Movie mode. Same thing with Logic 7 it has a Film mode and two different Music modes, one with steering, the other with ambiance extraction only.

 

[Chr1]

Okay, sure. That makes sense. I certainly only use upmixers made specifically for music. (Mostly DTS: NeoX Music mode.)

 

[dlaloum]

As Mr Dressler said, and which was quoted earlier:

"...especially in the case of upmixing, there is no right or wrong way to do it, it's all about taste and preference and having several options is a great idea if you can stand it."

ie. Taste in upmixers is subjective.
I find it weird that most of this thread is dominated by praise for old/outdated technologies, and disdain for the new.
Reminds me of the many threads where people simply deride "modern" music because it's not their taste. Or praise vinyl.
I think that it would be odd if upmixing technology had got worse, rather than better. My 2c.

But each to their own and all that.

Yep - plenty of examples throughout history - like the way electric vehicles were abandoned in the early 20th century, after being the dominant "horseless carriage" ... clearly it was an old/outdated technology, and the new internal combustion engine would rule the rest of eternity...

 

[Sal1950]

Amazing how someone who hasn't heard Logic 7 in ages thinks it's just for live music and can't image discretely from the surround speakers.

How could I? It is Processing Unobtainium. About the only place I can find it currently available is in a Genesis Car or SUV just like Bose in Fords.
The two processing kings, Storm and Trinnov only offer proprietary upmixers, which they claim are superior to Logic7
AFAIK, Not a single one of the mainstream AVR or AVR include a version of L7, if it's SO hot, why not?
Just about every processor on the planet have fallen all over each other to get Dirac ART in their more costlly products?

 

[dlaloum]

How could I? It is Processing Unobtainium. About the only place I can find it currently available is in a Genesis Car or SUV just like Bose in Fords.
The two processing kings, Storm and Trinnov only offer proprietary upmixers, which they claim are superior to Logic7
AFAIK, Not a single one of the mainstream AVR or AVR include a version of L7, if it's SO hot, why not?
Just about every processor on the planet have fallen all over each other to get Dirac ART in their more costlly products?

L7 was purchased by Harman as part of their purchase of Lexicon...

Along the way the got rid of Lexicon's very highly regarded R&D team who developed L7.

The IP and code library is still in Harman hands, but with the associated brain trust gone, it has withered on the vine.

They could of course, publish it and make it "open source" - but that clearly does not seem to be part of the Harman culture.

10 Years ago, they were already dumbing down L7 in the deployments on Harman and JBL AVR/AVP's...
They subsequently seem to have let go much of their JBL/Harman engineering team.!

Now that Harman is Samsung, will things change? - I doubt it.

If it was open sourced, then it might start popping up on other manufacturers platforms, but I expect it would first appear on inherently open(ish) source platforms like the Monoprice HPT1

Some of the L7 (later L16) developers were moved to the QLI development team to focus on Theatre/Pro gear - but that in turn seems to have disappeared.

 

[Sal1950]

L7 was purchased by Harman as part of their purchase of Lexicon...

Thanks dlaloum, but we know the history of Lexicon.
The point is, if there was demand for it, they would license it, MONEY
And the demand would exist if it had the kind of support you can see for ART everywhere.
Time, development and upmixing has moved on, watch the video.
Genesis Lexicon Audio, with Audience and On-Stage modes.

 

[sfogg]

L7 was purchased by Harman as part of their purchase of Lexicon...

Along the way the got rid of Lexicon's very highly regarded R&D team who developed L7.

Who also designed their processors hardware from scratch. Along with all their pro equipment. Lexicon use to say that for a large percentage of music (something like 80%), Lexicon processors added the reverb. They hinted that gave L7 had an inside track on what to look for.

10 Years ago, they were already dumbing down L7 in the deployments on Harman and JBL AVR/AVP's...
They subsequently seem to have let go much of their JBL/Harman engineering team.!

They got rid of so much talent over the years. That is what happened to Jim Fosgate and his Citation products too.

Now that Harman is Samsung, will things change? - I doubt it.

If it was open sourced, then it might start popping up on other manufacturers platforms, but I expect it would first appear on inherently open(ish) source platforms like the Monoprice HPT1

Can't imagine they would open source it, though I would love it if they did. Before PLII, Harman was in talks to license L7 to Dolby but the asking price was too high. Fosgate (surplussed by Harman at that point) ended up licensing his latest design instead.

Some of the L7 (later L16) developers were moved to the QLI development team to focus on Theatre/Pro gear - but that in turn seems to have disappeared.

Which is just crazy. Harman has a couple of amazing technologies that they should get out there.

 

[Magnus]

How could I? It is Processing Unobtainium. About the only place I can find it currently available is in a Genesis Car or SUV just like Bose in Fords.
The two processing kings, Storm and Trinnov only offer proprietary upmixers, which they claim are superior to Logic7
AFAIK, Not a single one of the mainstream AVR or AVR include a version of L7, if it's SO hot, why not?
Just about every processor on the planet have fallen all over each other to get Dirac ART in their more costlly products?

How could you? How did I? I buy them off of eBay for pennies on the dollar. I plug them into my 7.1 channel input on my AVR in the home theater and exercise room and the output or tape loop works for my old Carver preamp in my music room for the Carver ribbon speakers with Klipsch surrounds and I'm good to go.

 

[dlaloum]

How could you? How did I? I buy them off of eBay for pennies on the dollar. I plug them into my 7.1 channel input on my AVR in the home theater and exercise room and the output or tape loop works for my old Carver preamp in my music room for the Carver ribbon speakers with Klipsch surrounds and I'm good to go.

It's a viable kludge, but many of us, aren't keen on getting into kludgy setups! (which limits our options obviously!)

 

[Magnus]

It's a viable kludge, but many of us, aren't keen on getting into kludgy setups! (which limits our options obviously!)

I have NO CLUE (honest to God) WTF you're talking about!!! What KLUDGE??? Do you think 7.1 Inputs and Tape Loops are kludges??? Dumbest thing I've ever even imagined, let alone heard someone say! That's what they're there for! Do you think there is ONE IOTA a difference internally in an AVR switching MODES??? It's IDENTICAL!!! I'm an Electronic Engineer with two degrees for God's sake.

Keep listening to inferior crap because you think something is a "kludge".... My god.....

 

[Miker 1102]

There's no praise for anything in the quote in my post. He simply states that upmixers are a matter of taste.

I am not sure what different goals you are referring to, but I am still of the belief that upmixing technology has improved with time. Again, each to their own. YMMV.

I dont trust my memory about the older upmixing. I am no engineer and really am barely literate but I think the auro up mixing to me sounds excellent and doesnt distort the stereo image as much. I find DSU to sound garbled. Again, going on a person's hearing is useless but I am thrilled with what auro does on my avr.