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Upmixing - where are we at? Have people compared upmixers?

I finally located a working Lexicon MC-8 with the Pro Logic IIx upgrade already installed at the factory (It actually says PLIIx right on the nameplate as well as DTS NEO6). It's on its way and none too soon as my MC-1 recently died (power supply is the likely culprit), but I have a spare with a bad display I can steal the power supply and transplant it if that's the case, but this would be better in the home theater as I can directly compare Logic 7 to PLIIx. It wasn't too bad a price at $300. I think my MC-1 remote will likely work.
 
Magnus said:
I finally located a working Lexicon MC-8 with the Pro Logic IIx upgrade already installed at the factory (It actually says PLIIx right on the nameplate as well as DTS NEO6). It's on its way and none too soon as my MC-1 recently died (power supply is the likely culprit), but I have a spare with a bad display I can steal the power supply and transplant it if that's the case, but this would be better in the home theater as I can directly compare Logic 7 to PLIIx. It wasn't too bad a price at $300. I think my MC-1 remote will likely work.
Click to expand...

Looking forward to your comparison between PLIIx and L7, especially for music.
 
Magnus said:
I finally located a working Lexicon MC-8 with the Pro Logic IIx upgrade already installed at the factory (It actually says PLIIx right on the nameplate as well as DTS NEO6). It's on its way and none too soon as my MC-1 recently died (power supply is the likely culprit), but I have a spare with a bad display I can steal the power supply and transplant it if that's the case, but this would be better in the home theater as I can directly compare Logic 7 to PLIIx. It wasn't too bad a price at $300. I think my MC-1 remote will likely work.
Click to expand...
I kind of think it is a different remote but I'm trying to reach back several decades of knowledge. Lexicon tended to have dedicated remote codes for each model so people with centralized multi-room setups didn't have issues. They did sometimes reuse codes, esp. for zone 2.

Have fun with the MC-8. You will find its L7 is even better than what your MC-1 can do. Re-evaluate things like Center Steering in L7 as you can go more aggressive with the MC-8 versions steering and not have artifacts. I tended to run music with center steering film for the most solid center vocals and it didn't collapse the soundstage into the center. I posted a comparison of L7, PLIIx (and QLI) over on AVS last month. Will be interesting to see your thoughts after you compare them.
 
I got it in yesterday, but I'm not sure when I'll get to the install with work and Thanksgiving this week.

I've actually had a Playstation 5 for almost a year now still in the box as well as a JBL AV-2 (I'd like to try it's Faroudja line doubler out with my laserdisc player and see how it compares as it was designed for that purpose and laserdisc doesn't look all that great through the Marantz doubler. Ironically, I don't have room to set that one up without pulling the laserdisc player. It also has Logic 7 and Pro Logic IIx, although the Logic 7 is not as adjustable as older units. There's no remote.

The MC-8 remote looks like the MC-1 remote except for different functions. The original DC-1 remote works on the MC-1, for example, but lacks certain direct buttons so that's why I figure it might work.
 
So I am still puzzled about this. Am I right in thinking that people's preferences when it comes to upmixers, is purely subjective?
ie. Assuming the music being upmixed was originally in stereo, then ones preferred upmix is purely a matter of taste, as it's in essence "your" creation.

I have no experience of Logic and have settled on DTS Neo: X with music as my preference. One of the strangest things I have found with Neo: X, which I can't explain, is how the surround effect appears to change depending on the type of music. It appears to be lessened with genres that do not benefit from it so much. How, I don't know. But I swear that if I play, say a blues track then an electronic/house track, the house track uses way more surround effects and the blues track, a minimum. Very weird.

Perhaps this just explains why I have settled on Neo X though. It's algorithm or whatever, happens to suit my personal taste best. ie I prefer a more "normal" soundstage, with less emphasis on the surround channels with more traditional genres: rock, jazz, blues. And then more surround/envelopment with, say electronic music styles.

Interesting stuff for sure.
 
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Remotes looking alike doesn't mean much. A DC-2 and MC-1 remote look the same but the codes are different. I know the MC-1 remote codes are different then MC-12. I have never owned a MC-8 so I am not as familiar with its remote codes. I just modified a couple of them for 8 channel analog input ages ago. Hopefully it works for you.
 
Chr1 said:
So I am still puzzled about this. Am I right in thinking that people's preferences when it comes to upmixers, is purely subjective?
ie. Assuming the music being upmixed was originally in stereo, then ones preferred upmix is purely a matter of taste, as it's in essence "your" creation.

I have no experience of Logic and am using DTS Neo: X with music. One of the strangest things I have found with Neo: X, which I can't explain, is how the surround effect appears to change depending on the type of music. It appears to be lessened with genres that do not benefit from it so much. How, I don't know. But I swear that if I play, say a blues track then an electronic/house track, the house track uses way more surround effects and the blues track, a minimum. Very weird. Anyone know why this may be?

Perhaps this is why I have settled on Neo X. It's algorithm or whatever suits my personal taste best. I prefer a more "normal" soundstage, with less emphasis on the surround channels with more traditional genres: rock, jazz, blues. And more envelopment with, say electronic music styles.
Interesting stuff for sure.
Click to expand...

Mostly subjective though sometimes some surround processing/upmixing has faults and flaws which are fairly obvious. When you compare them back to back you can also focus on how well one does on a certain aspect of processing compared to the others. A place they can be fairly different is in the center channel. Good processing can solidify the center image, make vocals just sound more real and actually increase the imaging overall without destroying the soundstage. Other processing might not be able to do that or could have audible steering artifacts with the center. Or collapse everything into the center or into a couple of distinct pools of sound without the impression of a continuous soundstage.

The surround effect changing depending upon the music is pretty typical based on how most upmixers work. If there is little out of phase material between L/R you tend to get less surround info then if there is a lot of out of phase material. Sound out of phase between L/R sounds indistinct and sort of behind you when played back in stereo, that is why that becomes the surround material when processed. The differences in surround processing between units can be what is steered to each channel, how correlated the surrounds are, the impression of space they give and how seamlessly all the channels pull together. There can also be steering artifacts and sometimes things being too aggressive with the steering.

Some processing also does a bit of analysis of what it is playing (or has essentially gates/limits) and may automatically adjust some of the processing based on that. You can sometimes hear this as the surrounds seeming to turn on/off or pump/breathe a bit.

I also prefer a more normal sounstage like what you hear at a live performance. The surrounds are mostly about the sound of the original acoustic space with sometimes things moved into the surrounds if that was how it was mixed to be heard in the first place by being out of phase in L/R.

Good processing increases the illusion of you being at the performance and changes the feel of the acoustic space you are in.
 
Thanks. I am also kind of surprised that there has not been much discussion about the default channel volume levels with the various upmixers available. I spent many hours experimenting with, not only the types of upmixers, but also adjusting the various channel volume levels applied by said mixers to achieve, what to me was an optimum sound.
Seems to me that the default levels can be sub-optimal. To my taste. Again, as upmixing is subjective, surely there's nothing wrong with the tuning of the levels to ones preference?
Have to say that I didn't particularly like any with the default levels. Anyhoo, my 2c.
 
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sfogg said:
Remotes looking alike doesn't mean much. A DC-2 and MC-1 remote look the same but the codes are different. I know the MC-1 remote codes are different then MC-12. I have never owned a MC-8 so I am not as familiar with its remote codes. I just modified a couple of them for 8 channel analog input ages ago. Hopefully it works for you.
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No, they're very much identical codes. As I said, the only difference is there are shortcut buttons on the MC-1 remote. Nearly every single button (save the bypass which newer software got rid of) of the DC-1 works on the MC-1 (and MC-1 buttons that aren't new functions work on the DC-1. But then I already said that above so....
 
Chr1 said:
So I am still puzzled about this. Am I right in thinking that people's preferences when it comes to upmixers, is purely subjective?
ie. Assuming the music being upmixed was originally in stereo, then ones preferred upmix is purely a matter of taste, as it's in essence "your" creation.

I have no experience of Logic and have settled on DTS Neo: X with music as my preference. One of the strangest things I have found with Neo: X, which I can't explain, is how the surround effect appears to change depending on the type of music. It appears to be lessened with genres that do not benefit from it so much. How, I don't know. But I swear that if I play, say a blues track then an electronic/house track, the house track uses way more surround effects and the blues track, a minimum. Very weird.

Perhaps this just explains why I have settled on Neo X though. It's algorithm or whatever, happens to suit my personal taste best. ie I prefer a more "normal" soundstage, with less emphasis on the surround channels with more traditional genres: rock, jazz, blues. And then more surround/envelopment with, say electronic music styles.

Interesting stuff for sure.
Click to expand...
Generally speaking, out of phase material is moved towards the rear of the room in Logic 7 and PLIIx. The more out of phase it is, the further it is moved. Height effects vary on the system used.

The best measure with Neural X is how close it matches the action on-screen. If a jet flies overhead from the back of the room to the front overhead and appears on-screen, it's a pretty accurate/believable effect, IMO.
 
Magnus said:
No, they're very much identical codes. As I said, the only difference is there are shortcut buttons on the MC-1 remote. Nearly every single button (save the bypass which newer software got rid of) of the DC-1 works on the MC-1 (and MC-1 buttons that aren't new functions work on the DC-1. But then I already said that above so....
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I said DC-2 and MC-1, not DC-1.
 
Chromatischism said:
You would like Auromatic 3D.
Click to expand...
I haven't heard it, maybe someday. I've used the various flavors of Logic 7 since my v2.1 DC-1 back in the 90s and then the later versions of that in the MC-1, MC-12, and MC-12HD. Have had access to DTS Neo, PLIIX and a Meridian for Trifield but preferred L7 to them. Trifield configured for L/C/R and then running 5.1 L7 on top of that to pull out surrounds is an interesting combo too. Trifield surrounds by itself are too correlated.

For the last few months I have been using Quantum Logic Immersion which works on a very different principle compared to most surround processors/upmixers. It deconstructs the audio down to streams and then breaks each stream down to original direct sound, first reflections and reverb and then distributes that based on the number of channels configured.
 
Yes, they look the same, the codes are not all the same. I've have owned the DC-1 (both v2 and v3/4 with the new remote), MC-1 (v1 and v4) and DC-2s and still have about a half dozen MC-1 and DC-2.

Here are the pronto hex codes for power on for a DC-1,DC-2 and MC-12.

DC-1 Power On
0000 006c 0022 0002 0157 00ab 0016 0015 0015 0040 0016 0015 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0015 0015 0016 0040 0015 0040 0016 0040 0016 0015 0016 0040 0016 0015 0016 0015 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0040 0016 0040 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0015 0040 0016 0040 0016 0040 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0040 0016 0040 0015 0040 0016 066f 0157 0056 0015 0e4b

DC-2 Power On:

0000 006d 0022 0002 0154 00aa 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0695 0154 0055 0015 0e30


MC-12 Power On
0000 006c 0022 0002 0157 00ac 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 068a 0157 0057 0015 0e68

Notice how they aren't the same?
 
sfogg said:
Yes, they look the same, the codes are not all the same. I've have owned the DC-1 (both v2 and v3/4 with the new remote), MC-1 (v1 and v4) and DC-2s and still have about a half dozen MC-1 and DC-2.

Here are the pronto hex codes for power on for a DC-1,DC-2 and MC-12.

DC-1 Power On
0000 006c 0022 0002 0157 00ab 0016 0015 0015 0040 0016 0015 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0015 0015 0016 0040 0015 0040 0016 0040 0016 0015 0016 0040 0016 0015 0016 0015 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0040 0016 0040 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0015 0015 0040 0016 0040 0016 0040 0015 0015 0016 0015 0016 0040 0016 0040 0015 0040 0016 066f 0157 0056 0015 0e4b

DC-2 Power On:

0000 006d 0022 0002 0154 00aa 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0040 0015 0695 0154 0055 0015 0e30


MC-12 Power On
0000 006c 0022 0002 0157 00ac 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0015 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 0041 0015 068a 0157 0057 0015 0e68

Notice how they aren't the same?
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You show two units I don't even have as "proof" about something you already admitted you don't know (the MC-8). Both my DC-1 remotes work on the MC-1 and vice versa for buttons in common (some aren't) as I've already said. The MC-1 is newer than the DC-1 or DC-2. Its remote appears identical to the upgraded V3/4 DC-1 remote. It even works with the original DC-1 remote! If they wanted different codes to work independently, they failed miserably as they clearly do affect it.

I don't know what you're trying to prove as it has absolutely nothing to do with whether the MC-1 remote will work with the MC-8. The remote itself repurposed a couple of buttons for PLII and what not. The MC-12 remote is completely different looking. I don't have a DC-2 to compare (or a MC-12) neither have ANY bearing on the question at hand.

This is nothing but a waste of my time as it doesn't answer ANYTHING relevant. I'm putting you on ignore. I have zero interest in talking to your type anymore who just want to argue to argue.
 
No, I was refuting your assertion that DC-1 v3/4, MC-1 and DC-2 remotes are identical.

Like I have said multiple times, they look the same, they are not all the same. You are putting bad info out there. As another example, a MC-4 remote looks the same too. But if you try and use it on a MC-1 only some buttons work correctly. Some of the input buttons end up changing modes, some don't do anything. Some of the mode buttons change inputs, some don't do anything. The shift functionality is not correct either. Not conjecture, just tried it. Because Lexicon used different codes on different models.

As far as MC-1 and MC-8 I looked at the hex codes from a couple of old Pronto CCF files. They aren't the same but that might be subtle variations in learning from the raw IR capture mode of the CCF format.

The DC-2 and MC-1 were released within a month or two of each other, both replacing the earlier DC-1. The DC-2 and MC-1 are almost the same internally, just the slightly different chassis, the VFD in the MC-1, the MC-1 only available in the fully loaded DD/DTS model, the 6 channel S/PDIF expansion port, a digital output, a cooling fan on the DTS card, an additional RS-232 connector and I think an op-amps is different in the line stages. The DC-2 came in three hardware levels (THX, DD, DD/DTS) and was a little less expensive than the MC-1. At same hardware/software level the processing was identical between them. The DC-1 processing would be the same too if it had the same level hardware (DD or DD/DTS) and software version installed. V1 on the MC-1 is equivalent to v3 on the DC-1. To avoid confusion Lexicon skipped over v2/v3 on the MC-1 and went to V4.V4 processing is the same on all three of them as they all used the same DSP configuration. The MC-12 introduced a completely different DSP architecture which was also used in the MC-8 and MC-4.
 
Sure, it is here. The whole thread is about getting the QLI-32 up and running and building the BSS audio processing for it and my MC-12HD.
 
The MC-1 remote mostly works on the MC-8. The AV selection and mode selections are reversed (i.e. CD selects Logic 7 and Logic 7 selects CD give or take). Power, Mute, Volume, Modes, etc. all work the same. Logic 7 beats PLIIx for most things IMO (more natural sounding), but PLIIx works much better in 7-channel than it did in my old 6.1 setup and may work a little better on some movies, but seems similar to DSU with overheads turned off, IMO. I'd just assume use DSU. The MC-1 remote partially works on the JBL AV-2. Volume, Mute and modes work, but power and direct selections are not right.
 
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