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Upmixing - where are we at? Have people compared upmixers?

Because Neural: X makes much louder and more constant use of the heights, you get the wall of sound effect because they blend with your front LCR more. This is very evident in Oblivion on Blu-ray vs 4K UHD w/Atmos.
 
Because Neural: X makes much louder and more constant use of the heights, you get the wall of sound effect because they blend with your front LCR more. This is very evident in Oblivion on Blu-ray vs 4K UHD w/Atmos.
Yeah, okay. I still say your system is broken.
 
I don't know if this has been covered yet in this thread but, as someone who usually sits off axis, only the Dolby modes seem to keep the centered images in the center. The other upmixers all seen to turn on some form of center spread, which is great if you're sitting in the middle but if you're sitting off to the side, everything just collapses to the side channel as it you weren't using a center channel speaker at all. This effect makes me regret stepping up to a receiver that offers auro 3d, a little bit.
 
Since I don't really anticipate watching or listening on axis, and find myself essentially using only Dolby, I probably could have gotten away with using a cheaper model. Not that I've investigated yet if that's possible. No point in looking now.
 
I don't really anticipate watching or listening on axis,
Getting oneself on axis and central is highly desirable no matter what audio format or tech is used.

But if you are simply not going to do it, and you are the primary or most discriminating listener, then may I suggest you set everything up to best deal with your off axis position:-
  • turn all of the speakers towards your seat
  • set delays so all speakers reach your seat simultaneously
  • set levels so they are all matched at your seat
  • run room correction up to 500 Hz with the microphone position(s) at or around your seat
Then try upmixing.

cheers
 
I don't know if this has been covered yet in this thread but, as someone who usually sits off axis, only the Dolby modes seem to keep the centered images in the center. The other upmixers all seen to turn on some form of center spread, which is great if you're sitting in the middle but if you're sitting off to the side, everything just collapses to the side channel as it you weren't using a center channel speaker at all. This effect makes me regret stepping up to a receiver that offers auro 3d, a little bit.
I don't know for certain about newer versions of Auro-3D, but my original version doesn't use a center spread. I think the new ones offer a "movies" and "music" mode like the old Pro Logic II modes and if you don't want the spread, you choose movies even for music.

For DSU models that offer center spread still, there's always an option to turn it off. I have identical L/C/R towers. I leave it off. I cannot hear any difference with it on from the MLP, but I do hear it get worse off-axis, as you say.

Neural X doesn't offer a center spread as far as I know. Older DTS modes had a music mode for that sort of thing. If it does offer it in some models, I'd be surprised if there weren't a way to turn it off or just choose the movie mode in the older versions. I think the only difference in any "music" mode upmixer is the center spread thing.

People like that for systems with poor (or poorly placed) center speakers because putting them on the floor or in a horizontal position (or a special "center speaker" model that must be inferior to the main L/R speakers or people would choose to use 3 centers....) results in worse performance than two high quality regular speakers.

But if you use three high quality regular speakers, it's generally not an issue (there is a difference in room reflections normally that you may prefer one way or another), but using room treatments to absorb the first side wall reflection generally takes care of most of it (unless of course you like that first reflection; I use extracted front wides instead. Sounds come from the soundtrack that are in that direction, not my own walls to the room, which then gives a much wider/bigger image than using the walls).

But if you want the ultimate music upmixer, I still say Lexicon's Logic 7 is the best for music. It's so good, I've got 3 different used units from eBay in my house including a DC-1 in my Carver based ribbon music system, another DC-1 in my exercise room and a MC-1 plugged into my home theater via the 7-input mode on my Marantz Atmos AVR. Expanded with "Scatmos" processing, I actually get a Logic "11" mode (Logic 7 uses front wides and SS#2 here without it even knowing it since Scatmos steered processing occurs after Logic 7 processing). My Auro-3D mode uses Front Wides too because of that. If I had an Auro 13 decoder, it would use SS#2 also (it does in Auro2D mode).

There's lots of (now cheap) Lexicon units on eBay. Any older system with 7.1 inputs can use it as well as HiFi equipment with tape loops and the like (with the Lexicon controlling all surround in that case). You could also technically rig it up with a bunch of RCA mixers if external amps are used for everything.
 
I have identical LCR in my setup. The main reason I went for multichannel is because I like to sit off axis, and any center spread defeats the center channel's job in anchoring the center image. My listening impression confirms that I don't hear center spread with DTS neural x, but there's something I don't like about what it does... Can't put my finger on it yet though. My auro3d in my denon x3800 doesn't have options to turn off center spread. It only has small room, medium room, and large room settings and an overall strength setting. This leaves me using DSU and Atmos basically all the time. I'm not really complaining, though. I'm enjoying the system.
 
Auro-3D never had a center spread option to begin with, AFAIK. There's nothing to turn on or off in that regard. It probably always has behaved like center spread from what I've been reading. I probably didn't notice because I never tested it off-axis. I agree it's a bad system to not offer a discrete center output, especially for movies. You should be able to to turn center spread off for DSU, however.
 
Yes, once I discovered center spread in DSU destroyed center imaging off axis,I turned it off immediately. It's really a shame about auro3d, though.
 
I use PLIIx on a 7.1 configuration for all my music listening and really enjoy it. I'd love to hear L7 but have not had the opportunity to do so. I do wish L7 was available independently as a hardware based processor or software that can be installed on small form factor computers such as Raspberry Pi, Mac mini or Mini PC.

I've heard Anthem Logic and it's definitely not on par with PLIIx. When I first heard DSU, I did not like it at all but I think Dolby has been improving it. Heard DSU recently and noticed that it is a lot better, the centre extraction is really good but the steering aspect is still not as good as PLIIx.
 
For all you folks using two channel upmixers: Do you just leave all the channel levels "as is", or have you adjusted them? I particularly enjoy DTS Neo X: Music, primarily for electronic music, or anything "dubby" (reggae, funk etc). I spent quite some time tweaking the various channel levels to my own personal taste however. (Stored in a SS Music setting in my Pioneer SC-LX86)
Just curious if anyone else has done this?
 
For all you folks using two channel upmixers: Do you just leave all the channel levels "as is", or have you adjusted them? I particularly enjoy DTS Neo X: Music, primarily for electronic music, or anything "dubby" (reggae, funk etc). I spent quite some time tweaking the various channel levels to my own personal taste however. (Stored in a SS Music setting in my Pioneer SC-LX86)
Just curious if anyone else has done this?
Levels and timing calibration from the MLP is important regardless of the codec being used.
 
I use PLIIx on a 7.1 configuration for all my music listening and really enjoy it. I'd love to hear L7 but have not had the opportunity to do so. I do wish L7 was available independently as a hardware based processor or software that can be installed on small form factor computers such as Raspberry Pi, Mac mini or Mini PC.

I've heard Anthem Logic and it's definitely not on par with PLIIx. When I first heard DSU, I did not like it at all but I think Dolby has been improving it. Heard DSU recently and noticed that it is a lot better, the centre extraction is really good but the steering aspect is still not as good as PLIIx.
PLIIx was developed by Fosgate for listening to primarily stereo music sources....
It was in direct competition with L7.

Sadly, neither is readily available on the market now - PLIIx requires a seperate licence to the rest of the Dolby Suite (due to royalties owed to the Fosgate estate), so Dolby doesn't "sell" it, and manufacturers don't bother with with it.

L7 is proprietary to Lexicon / Harman... in theory it could find its way onto any of the other brands in that corporate stable - but it hasn't, the current L16 version is only on the Harman Synthesis AVR/AVP's
 
I use PLIIx on a 7.1 configuration for all my music listening and really enjoy it. I'd love to hear L7 but have not had the opportunity to do so. I do wish L7 was available independently as a hardware based processor or software that can be installed on small form factor computers such as Raspberry Pi, Mac mini or Mini PC.

I've heard Anthem Logic and it's definitely not on par with PLIIx. When I first heard DSU, I did not like it at all but I think Dolby has been improving it. Heard DSU recently and noticed that it is a lot better, the centre extraction is really good but the steering aspect is still not as good as PLIIx.
A Lexicon MC-1 or DC-1/DC-2 aren't quite Mac Mini sized, but they're still pretty darn small in terms of height at only 3.6 inches (Dimensions are 17.3"x3.6"x11.5"). I fit mine on top of my old laserdisc player. It doesn't get hot because it's only a pre-amp/processor so you can put it pretty much anywhere except on top of a power amp. And as I said before, they're pretty darn cheap on eBay. I've got two DC-1 and two MC-1 units and three remotes (1 MC-1 and two DC-1 and can program other remotes with them) and I don't think I paid over $180 for any of them. We're talking $3k/$4k processors when they were new.

I plugged the MC-1 into my Marantz 7012 Atmos AVR's 7.1 inputs so it just basically takes over the bed layer.

I plugged one of the DC-1 units into my Carver C5 Preamp for my Carver AL-III speakers with Klipsch surrounds (6.2 with no center channel). That just went to the C5 stereo input; surround outputs go to amp/speakers directly from the Lexicon as it doesn't need any other preamp, but I like the Carver's Sonic Holography mode, which can be combined on the front outputs of the Lexicon in Logic 7 mode plus the Carver gives me a fully analog path for my turntable.

That replaced a Technics DD/DTS Pro Logic decoder I was using. The difference is night and day even for Dolby Digital/DTS sources because Logic 7 will balance out between two sets of surround speakers and the Carver mains with adjustable delays to mesh the surround field perfectly for the setup (the Technics unit only had basic Pro Logic type delays). It sounds pretty amazing with surround music and even the bed layer of Atmos music titles (fantastic downstairs for stereo upmixing as well).

I plugged the other DC-1 into my old Denon 5.1 AVR (pre-PLII and pre-DD/DTS) using its 5.1 inputs (uses its amps) in my exercise room (nothing like watching or listening some surround sound TV/Movies or Logic 7 (well more like Logic 5 in that mode) music while walking on the treadmill or lifting weights).
 
Levels and timing calibration from the MLP is important regardless of the codec being used.
Sorry, I don't understand your point. I don't touch any timing/distance settings. I have adjusted the volume levels of the channels to my personal taste only. Just curious if anyone else has...
 
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I've heard Anthem Logic and it's definitely not on par with PLIIx. When I first heard DSU, I did not like it at all but I think Dolby has been improving it. Heard DSU recently and noticed that it is a lot better, the centre extraction is really good but the steering aspect is still not as good as PLIIx.
Is there any way to find out what version of DSU that's implemented on various AVRs?
I think I noticed an improvement on my Denon anfter the firmware update that introduced center spread, even without center spread enabled. So my guess is that they updated to a later version of DSU while they were at it.
 
I use PLIIx on a 7.1 configuration for all my music listening and really enjoy it. I'd love to hear L7 but have not had the opportunity to do so. I do wish L7 was available independently as a hardware based processor or software that can be installed on small form factor computers such as Raspberry Pi, Mac mini or Mini PC.

I've heard Anthem Logic and it's definitely not on par with PLIIx. When I first heard DSU, I did not like it at all but I think Dolby has been improving it. Heard DSU recently and noticed that it is a lot better, the centre extraction is really good but the steering aspect is still not as good as PLIIx.

The only thing I'm aware of that has changed in DSU since its inception is the availability of the Center Spread option to users. And that change happened years ago. (IIRC, Center Spread was available at first, then removed, then reinstated after user complaints, on various AVRs)

In effect this gives users the option of leaving shared L/R content steered very strongly to the Center (the DSU default, like DPLIIx 'Movie' mode, or a low setting for its Music Mode 'Center Width' option) versus more 'spread', as in, more shared with L/R (like the default DPL IIx Music mode setting for Center Width , which was '3').

IOW, while DPLIIx had a variable user setting for Center Width ranging from 1 to 7 (strong center to strong spread), DSU Center Spread has just 'on' and 'off'.

I don't think anything in the actual DSU steering algorithm has changed, but I haven't followed closely.
 
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Hi, I have no experience whatsoever with surround, so apologies in advance if this sounds relentlessly silly:
What upmixer would you recommend for someone who wants a 4.0 setup using stereo material? (I mean a "fake" surround, not 2 stereos placed in front for each other)
Do you use an AVR that has upmixer options? You need to describe what you have.
 
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