Upmixing - where are we at? Have people compared upmixers?

[krabapple]

Sadly PLII is no longer available on most recent AVR's.... apparently Dolby split out its licencing... so the manufacturer has to licence PLII seperately if they want it - part of the PLII fee goes to the estate/family of Jim Fosgate... and Dolby clearly wanted to minimise those costs.

I was surprised earlier this year to find good old DPLIIx on late model, low-end model Denon AVRs that don't have Atmos, So it's not gone completely.

 

[krabapple]

Looked into this a bit further, you have all these interesting software or plug-ins that are able to break music content into stems for up-mixing to immersive formats but they are all production oriented. I don't think they have the steering algorithms present in PLIIx and L7.

There is an old foobar2000 plugin called FreeSurround that attempts to emulate DPLIIx.

 

[Sam Ash]

There is an old foobar2000 plugin called FreeSurround that attempts to emulate DPLIIx.

I think there have been several attempts in different forms but the steering algorithms are absent and those form the core of DPLIIx and L7.

 

[krabapple]

I think there have been several attempts in different forms but the steering algorithms are absent and those form the core of DPLIIx and L7.

Still does a pretty impressiove job on many tracks...and its very user-configurable.

 

[Sal1950]

L7 does an excellent job of creating the ambiance in the rear channels to reproduce the effect of a large concert hall venue.
OTOH I believe the latest Dolby Digital, DTS-X and Auro-3D do a better job at faking a true discrete recording, very much different things.

 

[Magnus]

I don't think Auromatic does much at all. If you turn up the rear channels on Logic 7 with the right material, it's pretty darn impressive, IMO. Neural X and DSU vary how well they work. I find Logic 7 much more consistently good.

Logic 7 can't put things back there that don't exist in terms of phase, but playing Peter Gabriel's I/O album in Atmos (Inside Mix) versus playing the Dark Side Mix (stereo) in Logic 7, I think L7 mix sounds better overall.

 

[Sal1950]

Logic 7 can't put things back there that don't exist in terms of phase, but playing Peter Gabriel's I/O album in Atmos (Inside Mix) versus playing the Dark Side Mix (stereo) in Logic 7, I think L7 mix sounds better overall.

Of course you entitled to your opinion but
1. They are completely different masters so no real comparison like this can be made.
2. Logic 7 simply adds ambiance in rear channels, the I/O Atmos mix is a fully discrete multich mix.
Are you sure something isn't amiss in your Atmos configuration? I found the Hans-Martin Buff mix a
fantastic immersive listening experience.

 

[Magnus]

Of course you entitled to your opinion but
1. They are completely different masters so no real comparison like this can be made.
2. Logic 7 simply adds ambiance in rear channels, the I/O Atmos mix is a fully discrete multich mix.
Are you sure something isn't amiss in your Atmos configuration? I found the Hans-Martin Buff mix a
fantastic immersive listening experience.

It doesn't sound like you've ever heard proper Logic 7. It does not just add ambience (that would be Auromatic, which just copies and adds reverb). It creates a 360 degree wraparound sound field that can be quite discrete with the right material. I'm using a Lexicon MC-1. It has many adjustable parameters unlike newer Lexicon units.

Peter Gabriel's i/o album is excellent in Atmos, but the different master is why I'm saying the Dark Side mix is better in Logic 7. In stereo, it's flat, but that mix has better bass and kick drum. Once Logic 7 is applied, its fully 360 here and about 85% as discrete as the Atmos mix, IMO, but less overhead (not a huge overhead album anyway).

Admittedly, my Logic 7 setup is probably better than most because I'm using "Scatmos" to expand extra channels and that includes near discrete Front Wides and SS#2 speakers plus experimental floor speakers (front wides out of phase go to 4 floor speakers) plus I have front stage lift into Front Heights and optional copying of side surrounds to Surround Height (allows natural HRTF material to play overhead or lower).

Thus, my Logic 7 uses up to 19 speakers (out of 25 total plus subs).

For example, if I play Tori Amos' Ocean to Ocean album, the chorals in Addition of Light Divided shoot forward from just above head level and wrap around towards my head in Logic 7 as if it were discrete from the CD. If I play the Atmos streaming version the same bits rotate around me in a giant circle instead. Without Logic 7, it comes out a bit in my home theater, but doesn't wrap around. On my Carver system without Logic 7, it most plays just in front of the speakers, but with the DC-1 on Logic 7, it comes out into the room too, but doesn't wrap as well as my PSB based home theater which comes right to my head.

If I play my binaural Holophonics sound effect album Aldebaran in Logic 7, it sounds similar to the headphone presentation, but larger in size with a giant hair dryer blowing around my head instead of close to it. That's clearly not just some ambience, but outright rear and side imaging.

 

[Sal1950]

Admittedly, my Logic 7 setup is probably better than most because I'm using "Scatmos" to expand extra channels and that includes near discrete Front Wides and SS#2 speakers plus experimental floor speakers (front wides out of phase go to 4 floor speakers) plus I have front stage lift into Front Heights and optional copying of side surrounds to Surround Height (allows natural HRTF material to play overhead or lower).

Wow, OK, I surrender, you win.

 

[tetragrammaton]

I recently acquired a Lexicon MC-12HD. Logic 7 (albeit I adjusted some settings) is truly amazing. It is consistent in where it places sounds, and doesn't detract from stereo qualities. It is leaps and bounds above both Nugen Halo and Penteo 360.

 

[Magnus]

I never liked PLII Music. Logic 7 is fantastic. I even use it with my Carver AL-III speakers with Klipsch Surrounds and Rear Surrounds and I never thought the AL-III could blend well with another brand, but the sheer amount of adjustments definitely helped get a good front-to-side and rear match. On the DC-1 and MC-1 I've got a one button compare of Stereo to Logic 7.

The cool part on the Carvers is the mains output still routes through my Carver C5 Sonic Holography preamp so I can apply Sonic Holography to the Carvers to better match the width and depth of the side wall surrounds, creating a more wall to wall sound and giving it enough depth to reach the sides and blend with it (the home theater has the "Scatmos" front wides and ss#2 surrounds to blend a full 24' long soundstage seamlessly.

The sad thing is Logic 7 is SO much better than the other Lexicon modes, they're pretty much superfluous, IMO. Stereo and Logic 7 is pretty much all you need.

Panorama can be interesting, but it seems like an inferior version of Sonic Holography to me despite reading the opposite in reviews. I've got both here in both rooms and Sonic Holography wins hands down in image increase and sound quality. I suppose Panorama is easier to set up for any layout, but an optimized SH layout sounds better to my ears by leaps and bounds. I can even combine them, but then I get this weird 20' wide image.

 

[tetragrammaton]

I never liked PLII Music. Logic 7 is fantastic. I even use it with my Carver AL-III speakers with Klipsch Surrounds and Rear Surrounds and I never thought the AL-III could blend well with another brand, but the sheer amount of adjustments definitely helped get a good front-to-side and rear match. On the DC-1 and MC-1 I've got a one button compare of Stereo to Logic 7.

The cool part on the Carvers is the mains output still routes through my Carver C5 Sonic Holography preamp so I can apply Sonic Holography to the Carvers to better match the width and depth of the side wall surrounds, creating a more wall to wall sound and giving it enough depth to reach the sides and blend with it (the home theater has the "Scatmos" front wides and ss#2 surrounds to blend a full 24' long soundstage seamlessly.

The sad thing is Logic 7 is SO much better than the other Lexicon modes, they're pretty much superfluous, IMO. Stereo and Logic 7 is pretty much all you need.

Panorama can be interesting, but it seems like an inferior version of Sonic Holography to me despite reading the opposite in reviews. I've got both here in both rooms and Sonic Holography wins hands down in image increase and sound quality. I suppose Panorama is easier to set up for any layout, but an optimized SH layout sounds better to my ears by leaps and bounds. I can even combine them, but then I get this weird 20' wide image.

I only use stereo for brief reminders of how stereo sounds, 99% of the time I stick with Logic 7. Even the tracks where L7 is subtle I find it does enough for me to prefer it over plain stereo.

It's a shame that the only way to realistically experience it is by getting a device that is at least or almost two decades old at this point.

 

[Magnus]

I only use stereo for brief reminders of how stereo sounds, 99% of the time I stick with Logic 7. Even the tracks where L7 is subtle I find it does enough for me to prefer it over plain stereo.

It's a shame that the only way to realistically experience it is by getting a device that is at least or almost two decades old at this point.

I use it to mostly compare the results.

THX and Pro Logic are good to say it's authentic to the original style output, but it sounds better in Logic 7!

 

[Sal1950]

It's a shame that the only way to realistically experience it is by getting a device that is at least or almost two decades old at this point.

THX and Pro Logic are good to say it's authentic to the original style output, but it sounds better in Logic 7!

I do wonder how much of this Logic 7 love is due to some superior coding, and how much is nostalgia inspired?
I've used them all at one time or another over the years, today my Denon X4700H offers options from Dolby, DTS, and Auro, all of which have loads of configuration options, plus other proprietary options like Rock Arena and Jazz Club. Depending on the source, I find one of the first 3 to be a perfectly acceptable up-sampling option, most often Dolby with "Center Spread" option active, or the Auro 3D and it's dozens of configuration styles. It would be nice to have Logic 7 as an additional option to directly compare but ??? I don't find the modern codecs to be lacking in for an acceptable one.

 

[tetragrammaton]

I do wonder how much of this Logic 7 love is due to some superior coding, and how much is nostalgia inspired?
I've used them all at one time or another over the years, today my Denon X4700H offers options from Dolby, DTS, and Auro, all of which have loads of configuration options, plus other proprietary options like Rock Arena and Jazz Club. Depending on the source, I find one of the first 3 to be a perfectly acceptable up-sampling option, most often Dolby with "Center Spread" option active, or the Auro 3D and it's dozens of configuration styles. It would be nice to have Logic 7 as an additional option to directly compare but ??? I don't find the modern codecs to be lacking in for an acceptable one.

I have not had the chance to try modern consumer upmixers, but both Penteo360 and Nugen Halo are modern upmixers, and both to my ears are absolutely destroyed by Logic 7. My current setup only has side surrounds as I haven't gotten rear speakers yet, but to my ears it definitely does more than just "adds ambiance".

Superior by being actually consistent in placement of sounds, expanding width and not ruining "microdetail" and "punch" of stereo.

I plan to, down the line, expand my system with a modern 7.1.4 av receiver to experience the modern upmixers. I don't have any nostalgic attachment to Logic 7, as I am 28 years old. I will have the AV receiver set up to send its preamp outputs into my RME+Behringer outboard processing chain, which will give me real possibility of a direct comparison.

If you do check out the Logic 7 white paper, you will find that it is actually very, very clever. So at least where it beats out the likes of Penteo and Nugen, I guess is due to clever coding.

 

[Magnus]

If you get a modern AVR that has 7.1 inputs, you don't have to give up Logic 7. You just plug its outputs into the 7.1 inputs and you can even watch 4K movies with Logic 7 or any other mode.

Unfortunately, the newest Marantz AVRs finally dropped the 7.1 inputs. The SR8015 has been on sale and is a 13-channel capable AVR with 7.1 inputs and all the Atmos/X/Auro-3D modes. The Denon 8500 also has 13 channels and 7.1 inputs. My 7012 is only 11 channel direct (I expanded with Scatmos), but had 7.1 inputs also so I just plugged the Lexicon MC-1 straight into it. It works great.

 

[tetragrammaton]

If you get a modern AVR that has 7.1 inputs, you don't have to give up Logic 7. You just plug its outputs into the 7.1 inputs and you can even watch 4K movies with Logic 7 or any other mode.

Unfortunately, the newest Marantz AVRs finally dropped the 7.1 inputs. The SR8015 has been on sale and is a 13-channel capable AVR with 7.1 inputs and all the Atmos/X/Auro-3D modes. The Denon 8500 also has 13 channels and 7.1 inputs. My 7012 is only 11 channel direct (I expanded with Scatmos), but had 7.1 inputs also so I just plugged the Lexicon MC-1 straight into it. It works great.

Oh no no no, I will expand the Digiface USB with 16 inputs on ADAT to take in pre outs from the atmos receiver, I will not be giving up anything ^^

 

[morphemes]

Isn't logic7 just logic tho? Dolby uses logic... I like how Auromatic3D upmixer actually lets us adjust some of that logic: Small medium & large music presets are like a rudimentary zoom in\out function. Would really.prefer granular adjustments to match the upmixer logic to the source. Should be specific settings for stereo up mix corresponding to most common stereo mixes: binaural, ms, xy, blumlein (monomatrix) that's totaled stereo etc? With definite logical boundaries... And perhaps even a few settings to mess around with for each, adjusting image width and center reference point things like that, I want scientific instrument level control. stereo microscopy for my ears. Too much proprietary hand holding, not enough of this " logic "

How hard is a dial? everywhere you traditionally have a pad, they just make the decision for you & add this mystique. Wouldn't be so bad if they didn't hide it like they're so hush about everything you never knoW what's right without struggling to get your facts straight

 

[Magnus]

Isn't logic7 just logic tho? Dolby uses logic... I like how Auromatic3D upmixer actually lets us adjust some of that logic: Small medium & large music presets are like a rudimentary zoom in\out function. Would really.prefer granular adjustments to match the upmixer logic to the source. Should be specific settings for stereo up mix corresponding to most common stereo mixes: binaural, ms, xy, blumlein (monomatrix) that's totaled stereo etc? With definite logical boundaries... And perhaps even a few settings to mess around with for each, adjusting image width and center reference point things like that, I want scientific instrument level control. stereo microscopy for my ears. Too much proprietary hand holding, not enough of this " logic "

How hard is a dial? everywhere you traditionally have a pad, they just make the decision for you & add this mystique. Wouldn't be so bad if they didn't hide it like they're so hush about everything you never knoW what's right without struggling to get your facts straight

No, Logic 7 is not the same thing as Dolby's steering logic, although it probably borrowed the conceptual name.

Logic in Dolby steers sounds towards the center speaker. Logic 7 steers sounds to 7 speakers. It's closer to Pro Logic IIx in what it does, but the algorithms are different. It's usually considered the best music 2-channel source upmixer ever made. It also can upmix 4 or 5 channels to 7 as well.

Newer upmixer like DSU and Neural X also use the height channels, but it's questionable whether that sounds better with music as Neural X can put things overhead that clearly don't belong there. DSU is more ambient in that regard.

 

[Anton S]

Has anybody else here with a newer Anthem AVR or AVM tried either of the AnthemLogic modes (-Music or -Cinema) when upmixing from 2-channel sources? I've skimmed through most of the pages in this thread, but haven't seen any comparison of these to the other up-mixers.

For those unfamiliar with the AnthemLogic upmixers, the -Cinema option upmixes to all speakers available in the selected speaker profile, whereas the -Music option upmixes to all available speakers EXCEPT the center channel. My AVM70 enables me to switch upmixing modes among the Dolby, DTX, and AnthemLogic upmixers (no Auro capability), so I've been able to quickly compare them. I've settled on the AnthemLogic-Cinema option as my personal preference for music listening on my system in my room, but I'm curious to hear about others' experiences.