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Upgrading to Genelec Speakers vs Buying HTP1 to Calibrate Any Speakers?

sigbergaudio

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Also attached photo of the Revel/HTP-1 setup - Be series in front, some elevated kef R5's in rear. If I can ever sell the R5's i'll replace with something like F35/F36, again just for the peace of mind that everything 'matches.' I have some Revel 783's for top middle but I'm too chicken to get on a 20' ladder + run the cable and finding an installer willing to do a one-off has been tough. Having both monitors and towers, I understand what you mean. I saw a really good article here, I swear it was by Sigberg but I can't find it now, on what towers can do that monitors never will and one point was taller imaging. I do believe it's possible to achieve an audibly identical result if you have perfect sub placement/room treatment/EQ but most of us would be better served, in time and $, by getting bigger speakers for mid-far field. Of course, that's before you even get into the 'fun' vs 'accurate' conversation - does anyone really believe Kii Three sounds *better* than Salon2? More accurate, sure, but I can tell you firsthand there's a reason I moved from Kef to Revel in the common area. In terms of fun factor the difference is palpable, especially in dynamic range.

Pretty sure I didn't write anything like that. :) On the contrary, I think it is largely visual cues that feeds this myth/impression. Proper imaging including depth/height is perfectly possible with monitors. Admittedly one could argue that I'm not perfectly objective on this matter, since neither our current or upcoming speakers are towers. :)
 

tifune

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Let us consider for a second that you decide to set the Genelecs on the larger living room. I can see the acoustics can be complicated just by the amount of glass, but that will happen with any kind of system, that´s where EQ becomes crucial. Would you be able to get results as good as the ones you already have with the Revels? The bottom line here is can you get equally good sound with active or passive or does the actives (in this case, the Genelecs) give you the extra option to get better sound? Also, the other consideration is if Genelecs would be capable of working well on the larger space you have.

Why am I asking? Well, because I have a fully passive, re-purposed 11.2 system. I say re-purposed because my height channels are Kef IQ 1´s that were never intended to be height speakers, as they were designed and produce before Atmos even existed. It works well, because the room they´re in has tall walls (almost 3 meters!), so channel separation is there. The baseline is a combination of other Kef IQ speakers (7, 8ds, 6c, 3) and a pair of subwoofers (PSW 2500). So far, I´m using Audyssey x32, but no fine tuning.

I use the system for everything: films, music, videogames, watching the news, radio reproduction... I want to upgrade the system a bit, but after reading this forum for months, the "to what?" question has become difficult. Active speakers (something I never considered), particularly Genelecs, have the advantage of amazing sound in a very compact format and a source point design, just like the Kef´s I use. Cable management will be harder for sure (XLR´s and power, plus RJ45 jacks) but at least on paper, the smallest speaker from the Ones series has more performance than my current Kef IQ7 towers in a fraction of the space. However, I also fear that going that route will be overkill or that I may be missing or not considering some factor.

It's absolutely possible to get as good of a sound, probably better, I'm just not sure it would be as enjoyable unless I added a few more monitors as front wide and/or surround back. The Revels have that enveloping, wrap-around quality to them which the Genelecs do not. Thus, a Revel 5.2.2 is just about as spacious as my Kef R-series 9.2.2 was. Properly built actives will almost always be better, there's just so many advantages. So if that's an option for you, I'd pursue it unless you have budget & space for Blades or Salons.

11 channels of 83x1's is going to be $, but I'm sure you're already aware of that. I think a good compromise is KH80's for heights, although 3m is quite a distance. You can see a great example in this thread, if you haven't already. Although they're great, it would be difficult for me to recommend any Genelec sub or 2 way given all the competition out there.

Off topic a bit... does the additional bass from AuroMatic bother you? Big fan of 4 subs/DLBC and work hard to get the bass "right". The significant amount of bass boost by Auro I find to make it sound very bad/bloated. If it bothers you do you create a seperate preset to reduce bass or manually adjust it?

I might be the worst person for that question - I'm firmly in the "prefers +6dB bass" demographic of the harman research. So, it doesn't bother me in the slightest but I can see how it's not a fit for everyone.
 

Vacceo

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It's absolutely possible to get as good of a sound, probably better, I'm just not sure it would be as enjoyable unless I added a few more monitors as front wide and/or surround back. The Revels have that enveloping, wrap-around quality to them which the Genelecs do not. Thus, a Revel 5.2.2 is just about as spacious as my Kef R-series 9.2.2 was. Properly built actives will almost always be better, there's just so many advantages. So if that's an option for you, I'd pursue it unless you have budget & space for Blades or Salons.

11 channels of 83x1's is going to be $, but I'm sure you're already aware of that. I think a good compromise is KH80's for heights, although 3m is quite a distance. You can see a great example in this thread, if you haven't already. Although they're great, it would be difficult for me to recommend any Genelec sub or 2 way given all the competition out there.



I might be the worst person for that question - I'm firmly in the "prefers +6dB bass" demographic of the harman research. So, it doesn't bother me in the slightest but I can see how it's not a fit for everyone.
Thanks for the heads up! Revel is not an option as I am in Europe (no distribution at least where I am). We'll have to see what Kef releases in the near future, as what I have performs well.

Genelec is always there, so thanks for the information! I am aware of the prices, indeed. The great thing is that if I get them, those speakers will be for life.
 
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tifune

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Thanks for the heads up! Revel is not an option as I am in Europe (no distribution at least where I am). We'll have to see what Kef releases in the near future, as what I have performs well.

Genelec is always there, so thanks for the information! I am aware of the prices, indeed. The great thing is that if I get them, those speakers will be for life.

If you're in Europe, you also have ME Geithain as an option. You should try them out and let me know what you think! They're only special order here in USA, so no returns unless defective. Too much $ for such a gamble but they're the last manufacturer i'm desperate to check out. 3-way coaxials with 8-15" woofers + "cardioid characteristic" (maybe marketing, not sure, but some is better than none)
 

Vacceo

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If you're in Europe, you also have ME Geithain as an option. You should try them out and let me know what you think! They're only special order here in USA, so no returns unless defective. Too much $ for such a gamble but they're the last manufacturer i'm desperate to check out. 3-way coaxials with 8-15" woofers + "cardioid characteristic" (maybe marketing, not sure, but some is better than none)
Geithain have mixed reviews around here and they are not easy to listen to, or at least, far harder to listen to than Genelec or Kef: the first due to how common they are in production environments (I know a couple guys using them) and Kef due to sheer popularity among hi fi enthusiats (the speakers I, and a gazillon others, use). I´ll keep my eyes open, though, for a chance to listen to them. I was fortunate enough to listen to a pair of Blade metas, so you never know...

From the diagrams I´m seeing, Genelec provides a bit, just a bit wider radiation pattern than a Kef R (around 10 degrees more reaching 50 from the center, while Kef stays around 40 or a bit less). For SPL, there is no comparison even to the LS active series: quite a lot more in the same or smaller size.

From what I see, for a room around 6x5 meter room with walls almost 3 meters, the 8341 would be the right choice for satellites and the 8351 for left, right and center. Damn, it´d be expensive! However, from your description, an 8351 is perfectly capable of equaling if not directly surpassing something along the lines of a Kef R7 even in the low extension (though yeah, a subwoofer would still be required). The radiation pattern could be just a tad wider.

I don´t typically listen at reference level (which for home atmos is, if I remember correctly, shy of 100 db), so the dynamic range can be better than the R series. A bit tight for a "by the book" setup, but plenty capable still. The other logistical advantage I see is that monitors are bought by the unit, not in pairs, so it will be more efficient to set an Auro setup. That is countered by the need of xlr and them being a bit harder to move around due to connectos but well, that´s what bookcase are for: place them behind and hide with books (which are also a convenient way to add room treatment if there is a good amount of them)

Definetly, it is a potential set up to study with more time, pen and paper to run numbers
 

Dj7675

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It's absolutely possible to get as good of a sound, probably better, I'm just not sure it would be as enjoyable unless I added a few more monitors as front wide and/or surround back. The Revels have that enveloping, wrap-around quality to them which the Genelecs do not. Thus, a Revel 5.2.2 is just about as spacious as my Kef R-series 9.2.2 was. Properly built actives will almost always be better, there's just so many advantages. So if that's an option for you, I'd pursue it unless you have budget & space for Blades or Salons.

11 channels of 83x1's is going to be $, but I'm sure you're already aware of that. I think a good compromise is KH80's for heights, although 3m is quite a distance. You can see a great example in this thread, if you haven't already. Although they're great, it would be difficult for me to recommend any Genelec sub or 2 way given all the competition out there.



I might be the worst person for that question - I'm firmly in the "prefers +6dB bass" demographic of the harman research. So, it doesn't bother me in the slightest but I can see how it's not a fit for everyone.
Makes sense... I have a +6 low end boost already as well and it sounds about perfect to my ears and listening levels... when I use Auromatic Upmixer, it seems to ad about the same amount on top of that which sounds excessive. On my Stormaudio I usually have to reduce sub levels around 3 db and the bass tone control by about 2db to restore bass to something in the right ball park.
 

ernestcarl

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What are some limitations besides sweat equity required to get it dialed in? I'd love to give it a try someday, but time is so limited...

Yeah, I cannot quite count the number of times that I felt overwhelmed dealing with the whole manual setup approach -- not so much today, though, due to experience gained. If starting from scratch, frankly, I think most people are far better off with an AVR.

If you really want to find out yourself and confirm what the downmixing/upmixing processing does, measurement testing with various test signals need to be performed. I've only ever done simple acoustic sweeps myself, but there's already enough information in there to figure out the main stuff the algorithm does.

To be succinct, overall, JRSS behaves much like Dolby Pro-logic IIx.

From a pure stereo source, L+R is summed and sent to the center channel at a lower level. The surrounds, however, receive signals from both left and right channels -- but one of them is inverted which effectively cancels out much of the centrally panned/equally left-right mixed sounds e.g. voices and bass beats. The main surrounds or side surrounds are delayed by 20ms, while the rear surrounds are delayed by 30ms. Both surround pairs do not output exactly the same identical summed signals, but sound rather different from each other. Also, notably, far more attenuation is applied to the (earlier arriving) side surrounds than to the (later arriving) rear surrounds -- with the latter providing more of the perceived "envelopment" effect than the former.

I've not determined how JRSS deals with logic steering, but it should be doing a little something on that front given how it was mentioned that it works similarly to Neural X, too. But that assumption could be wrong, I just haven't done any testing on it.

Because we know that three additional groups of speaker(s) are merely inserted/added to the mix, the easiest way to play around with manipulating the overall stereo image focus and envelopment is to vary these parameters, as explained earlier.

Below, I've now included the center channel as an additional "adjustable" checkbox:

1660552430188.png


Larger attenuation values should be a lot more audible to make things easier for the person "dialing in" what sounds best to him/her with the specific type of material played.

Personally, I like to reduce either just the center channel; or center, side, and rear surrounds altogether with certain track/albums. For example: "Bubbles" by Yosi Horikawa is a recording that seems to employ a lot of artificially engineered phase manipulation to successfully simulate the movement of many sound objects from only left and right stereo channels. The JRSS upmixer negatively causes unwanted "busy-ness"/confusion in the original soundstage and imaging -- so very quickly entering the keyboard combo Control+D (brings up 'DSP studio' window), a little scrolling down the PEQ section menu, and enabling the three volume reduction settings in the posted display already instantly improves the sound.

Does it sound better than the original stereo mix, though? Ah, actually, yes... I do think it's an improvement given the dryness of the acoustics in my room. In your own room, you may want more or less volume adjustments - you might possibly even prefer to mute the surrounds altogether and only attenuate the center mix.

That's not too difficult, is it? ;)

Then again, it's not the same as Auro, Atmos, and DSU etc.! :mad:

Nah... As I've mentioned before, less options sometimes can be a boon amidst the many trivial day-to-day audiophile problems we encounter.
 

tifune

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Yeah, I cannot quite count the number of times that I felt overwhelmed dealing with the whole manual setup approach -- not so much today, though, due to experience gained. If starting from scratch, frankly, I think most people are far better off with an AVR.

Nah... As I've mentioned before, less options sometimes can be a boon amidst the many trivial day-to-day audiophile problems we encounter.

THis is extremely helpful, thank you. Admittedly, you've turned me off entirely to whole idea :), but I do appreciate your thorough response. I even sometime feels overwhelmed by Auro's Small/Med/Large, 1-15 "wet/dry" options, so I can't even fathom my frustration if I went entirely DIY.

Did you save any of the sweeps by chance? Audioholics did a video that shows a few of the differences on the AVR upmixers, but not nearly as many as I would've liked. (easy for me to say) I'm especially interested to know how much is coming through to the surrounds in your scenario. I was very surprised when, as a test, I set my 7350s bass management to 40Hz per channel and disconnected all monitors only to find there was still a good amount of bass coming out of surround/surround back, even some out of height channels.
 

ernestcarl

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THis is extremely helpful, thank you. Admittedly, you've turned me off entirely to whole idea :), but I do appreciate your thorough response. I even sometime feels overwhelmed by Auro's Small/Med/Large, 1-15 "wet/dry" options, so I can't even fathom my frustration if I went entirely DIY.

Did you save any of the sweeps by chance? Audioholics did a video that shows a few of the differences on the AVR upmixers, but not nearly as many as I would've liked. (easy for me to say) I'm especially interested to know how much is coming through to the surrounds in your scenario. I was very surprised when, as a test, I set my 7350s bass management to 40Hz per channel and disconnected all monitors only to find there was still a good amount of bass coming out of surround/surround back, even some out of height channels.

Since my data is going to be specific to JRSS, it's probably best to post it (later in the day) in the ff. thread instead: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...p-jrss-and-another-upmixing-discussion.33845/

I've learned some new things since my last post in there, so a revision to some of my statements before may be in order.
 

tifune

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Pretty sure I didn't write anything like that. :) On the contrary, I think it is largely visual cues that feeds this myth/impression. Proper imaging including depth/height is perfectly possible with monitors. Admittedly one could argue that I'm not perfectly objective on this matter, since neither our current or upcoming speakers are towers. :)

@Vacceo At the risk of even further derailing this thread, it was bothering me that I couldn't recall where I'd found aforementioned article so I finally dug it up. I think I originally misunderstood it, as well.


Go ahead, you can all make fun of me: "are you saying all Norwegians look the same" etc.
 

Vacceo

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@Vacceo At the risk of even further derailing this thread, it was bothering me that I couldn't recall where I'd found aforementioned article so I finally dug it up. I think I originally misunderstood it, as well.


Go ahead, you can all make fun of me: "are you saying all Norwegians look the same" etc.
I already know they do not: Mayhem and Emperor are quite different bands even when both play Black Metal. :p

Thanks for the article and remembering! :)
 

Vacceo

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So esentially, it is possible at the compromise of very low frequencies (no prob, subwoofers exist for a reson) and moderating the volume expectations. It sounds quite reasonable, to be honest, because typically, you aim for smaller speakers when you cannot fit large ones.

In that regard, I see actives, as the LS60 from KEF has show, to be able to push that envelope.
 

tifune

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So esentially, it is possible at the compromise of very low frequencies (no prob, subwoofers exist for a reson) and moderating the volume expectations. It sounds quite reasonable, to be honest, because typically, you aim for smaller speakers when you cannot fit large ones.

In that regard, I see actives, as the LS60 from KEF has show, to be able to push that envelope.

Agreed, with the exception being if you need to buy stands for your small speakers you might as well buy the next size up (if possible) since the costs and physical space consumed will be comparable plus you'll almost always get a little bit more extension & SPL for your $.
 

Vacceo

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Agreed, with the exception being if you need to buy stands for your small speakers you might as well buy the next size up (if possible) since the costs and physical space consumed will be comparable plus you'll almost always get a little bit more extension & SPL for your $.
I have been using bookshelves in actual bookshelves for years. I set them slightly protruding forward and around a ton of books. That seems to isolate them quite well. It also helps with integration, as they are not so strikingly visible.
 

sigbergaudio

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So esentially, it is possible at the compromise of very low frequencies (no prob, subwoofers exist for a reson) and moderating the volume expectations. It sounds quite reasonable, to be honest, because typically, you aim for smaller speakers when you cannot fit large ones.

In that regard, I see actives, as the LS60 from KEF has show, to be able to push that envelope.

I would then also like to point our "trick" involving building bookshelf speakers that don't even try to play bass and have a dedicated midbass driver, that means you don't really have to moderate your volume expectations either.
 

Vacceo

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I would then also like to point our "trick" involving building bookshelf speakers that don't even try to play bass and have a dedicated midbass driver, that means you don't really have to moderate your volume expectations either.
That is a method indeed: place all the workload somewhere else. Integrating bases is probably no different than what you already do with a subwoofer on a more conventional system.
 
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stevenswall

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If you have the patience to level match your Kali's by hand, you certainly have the patience to work with GLM and the $200 Audyssey upgrade to import REW filters and Denon is WAY cheaper than HTP1. Quite a few affordable AVRs with Dirac these days, but not all of them have Auro3D (if you care). many people are happy w DSU but I think it's too overwhelming on surround channels especially with high gain/overdriven guitars. Either way, DLBC is rare and if you ever get into multisub GLM+SAM sub is great but $$$, MSO is great but time.
Yeah. I've been looking at the Denon 4700 but everyone who does Auro 3D upmixing seems to prefer it to Atmos.

Maybe I wouldn't care though as the only upgrades I plan in the next couple of years are the 8351B center and some 8331 rear surrounds to get the 5.1 system fully set up with Genelec SAM monitors.

Does Auromatic 3D upmixing sound better with just the floor speakers and no heights?
 

tifune

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Yeah. I've been looking at the Denon 4700 but everyone who does Auro 3D upmixing seems to prefer it to Atmos.

Maybe I wouldn't care though as the only upgrades I plan in the next couple of years are the 8351B center and some 8331 rear surrounds to get the 5.1 system fully set up with Genelec SAM monitors.

Does Auromatic 3D upmixing sound better with just the floor speakers and no heights?

3D won't work without front height :(

In that situation, you have Auro 2D instead which most people don't like nearly as much (although I can't remember why). I think, too, in the Audioholics upmix video where Gene did some sweeps he found a really strange behavior with 2D but again I can't quite recall.

You'd also have Dolby w center spread, which a lot of people like just as much as Auro3D. I'm not one of them because most of my musical tastes have high gain guitar which are over-emphasized in the surrounds to an overwhelming degree. And forget Neural:X for music, just terrible (but very good for stereo/mono movies)
 
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