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Upgrading to Avantgarde Colibri C2

I haven't heard your particular speakers, but I have heard many horns. I agree, they have a certain punch to them that conventional speakers like the KEF's don't have. Up to now, I still don't know where I might find that in measurements. I have a strong suspicion it's the way the energy is directed - if you measure SPL at different distances, you will find that the horn concentrates energy like a jet, rather than distributing it evenly around the room like a conventional speaker. In other words, the SPL does not fall off according to the inverse square law, it behaves more like a line array within that frequency band. This isn't captured in conventional spinorama measurements which only measure speakers at a fixed distance.
The horizontal and vertical directivity plots should give you a pretty good idea of the beaming / concentration at different frequencies. It's not the full spherical expansion balloon you can get from the NFS, but it's a good start. Erin's dynamic range test (which we don't get here) will show you whether the speaker starts to hit its limits at higher output levels, which is one area where the smaller KEFs will be clearly different to a compression driver in a horn or waveguide, or even a more capable dome like the 1" in the Reference 2 Meta vs 0.75" in the LS60.

I ought to read up on how Klippel suggest dealing with things like line arrays in the NFS (Application note 70) as I imagine the spherical harmonic model might not fit so well there as it does with smaller speakers. It might be applicable to some of the horn systems we see with large distances between horns covering different frequency ranges.
 
I haven't heard your particular speakers, but I have heard many horns. I agree, they have a certain punch to them that conventional speakers like the KEF's don't have. Up to now, I still don't know where I might find that in measurements. I have a strong suspicion it's the way the energy is directed - if you measure SPL at different distances, you will find that the horn concentrates energy like a jet, rather than distributing it evenly around the room like a conventional speaker. In other words, the SPL does not fall off according to the inverse square law, it behaves more like a line array within that frequency band. This isn't captured in conventional spinorama measurements which only measure speakers at a fixed distance.
It is captured in the spinorama measurments done by the Klippel NFS. It captures the anechoic frequency response over the whole 360 degree sphere. Using this information you can then determine (more or less) the speakers sound in a room.
 
It is captured in the spinorama measurments done by the Klippel NFS. It captures the anechoic frequency response over the whole 360 degree sphere. Using this information you can then determine (more or less) the speakers sound in a room.

With respect, I don't think it does. Where in the spinorama does it show that energy is dropping off at 1/d instead of 1/d^2? About the only thing you will see on the CEA2034 is greater directivity at high frequencies.

Maybe @NTK would like to comment?
 
Line arrays fall off at 3dB per doubling of distance but I never heard the same about horns. Might very well be that dynamic horn sound is actually related to lower compression. In this case, the dynamic sound should be most audible at higher playback levels. At low levels any speaker shows low compression.

Especially intermodulation distortion and direct-to-reverberant ratio may also affect sound perception. Low distortion sound with low reverb is clear and detailed supporting the impression of dynamic sound.

Headphone drivers that show compression in burst measurements due to weak and nonlinear motor, definitely sound less dynamic, when driven to high playback level. The effect is most obvious in upper bass and midrange.
 
I have a strong suspicion it's the way the energy is directed - if you measure SPL at different distances, you will find that the horn concentrates energy like a jet, rather than distributing it evenly around the room like a conventional speaker. In other words, the SPL does not fall off according to the inverse square law, it behaves more like a line array within that frequency band.

A horn is still a "point source", with spherical wavefronts, so their SPL obeys the inverse square law.

A line array is obviously _not_ a point source...
 
With respect, I don't think it does. Where in the spinorama does it show that energy is dropping off at 1/d instead of 1/d^2? About the only thing you will see on the CEA2034 is greater directivity at high frequencies.

Maybe @NTK would like to comment?
I am travelling and am on my phone, so I won't be able to write lengthy posts until I'm home this weekend. My suspicion for horns being more "dynamic" is because of its high output capabilities and the way it generated sound pressure.

For direct radiators we know sound pressure is generated from the acceleration of the cone. For horn loaded compression drivers, because the air in front of the diaphragm is trapped in a compression chamber (the tube case in Dr @jackocleebrown's post), the sound pressure is generated from the cone velocity. Please review the opening post of this thread by Dr Jack.
 
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it’s just way more in-your-face than with the KEFs. Not only a bit punchier and better defined, but also with more depth and spatial layering; you can pinpoint individual instruments much better than with the KEFs.
A friend of mine recently replaced his Kef with a regular homemade 15"+XT1464; his impressions are very similar to yours.
In other words, the SPL does not fall off according to the inverse square law
I don’t think so; a horn is a virtual point source of a spherical wave, albeit with controlled directivity.
 
I don’t think so; a horn is a virtual point source of a spherical wave, albeit with controlled directivity.

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Taken from this post. Notice how the horns (from about 800Hz up) do not change SPL by very much up to 250cm away from the speaker. But the woofers (conventional driver in a box) drops by 10dB.

I too, have never heard anybody say that horns behave like CBT's. But I have proof with measurements.
 
Isn't this just a result of the high directivity, independently how that is created? As a thought experiment we compare an omni- vs a directional source:

Omnidirectional source: radiates power W equally in all directions. At distance r, the intensity is spread over the full sphere's surface area: I = W / (4πr²)
Directivity factor Q = 1 everywhere, Directivity Index DI = 10·log₁₀(Q) = 0 dB in every direction.

Highly directive source: concentrates the same total power W into a narrow lobe. In the direction of maximum radiation: I_max = Q·W / (4πr²), with Q > 1

Since Q > 1, I_max is higher than the omnidirectional case for identical total power — the gain is DI = 10·log₁₀(Q) dB. But because total radiated power is conserved (it must still integrate to W over the whole sphere), intensity in other directions drops below the omnidirectional level. The directional source doesn't create extra power; it redistributes the same power more efficiently toward one direction, at the expense of others.
 
Isn't this just a result of the high directivity, independently how that is created? As a thought experiment we compare an omni- vs a directional source:

That may be plausible. The reason I don't agree is because ALL conventional speakers have a falling frequency response (downwards treble tilt) the further you get from the loudspeaker. You can see it in ER. My speakers don't do that, you can clearly see a RISING frequency response. If I were to equalise it to flat at 1m, by 3m it would be tilting upwards.

Anyway, you have a microphone and conventional speakers? Would you be able to replicate my experiment and see what you find?

Or you could wait a couple of months, I am expecting a "normal" speaker to land in my listening room and i'll be able to measure it to my heart's content.
 
View attachment 546394

Taken from this post. Notice how the horns (from about 800Hz up) do not change SPL by very much up to 250cm away from the speaker. But the woofers (conventional driver in a box) drops by 10dB.

I too, have never heard anybody say that horns behave like CBT's. But I have proof with measurements.
Are these gated or as-is?
 
Gated. FDW 15 cycles.
Something is off then.

I have measured Blumehofer DV3 (the 3-woofer model) which is also a big horn and don't remember having this effect.
Gated (the room is very big though) it looked like any other big speaker with somehow lean 3kHz-7kHz gated and declining with distance from then on, gated.
I does ballooning a little too up very high though, but following that decline.

(horn is looking down, if that matters, it's adjustable)

I only measured 2 points though, 2 and 4 (MLP) meters.

Horns are strange :p
 
Isn't this just a result of the high directivity, independently how that is created? As a thought experiment we compare an omni- vs a directional source:

Omnidirectional source: radiates power W equally in all directions. At distance r, the intensity is spread over the full sphere's surface area: I = W / (4πr²)
Directivity factor Q = 1 everywhere, Directivity Index DI = 10·log₁₀(Q) = 0 dB in every direction.

Highly directive source: concentrates the same total power W into a narrow lobe. In the direction of maximum radiation: I_max = Q·W / (4πr²), with Q > 1

Since Q > 1, I_max is higher than the omnidirectional case for identical total power — the gain is DI = 10·log₁₀(Q) dB. But because total radiated power is conserved (it must still integrate to W over the whole sphere), intensity in other directions drops below the omnidirectional level. The directional source doesn't create extra power; it redistributes the same power more efficiently toward one direction, at the expense of others.
You're still dividing by r² though, so you still have an inverse square function. That's in contrast to something like a vertical line source where the height remains more or less constant rather than diverging - it's only diverging horizontally like a wedge of cake, so you divide by r not r². That's a property that doesn't show on the normal horizontal/vertical directivity plots as they're shown at a single distance. It's also what makes me wonder about how Klippel suggest dealing with such arrays in the NFS as it seems not to be a good match for a spherical harmonic representation.

It seems like the horn from @Keith_W's plot would have to be sending a laser-like cylinder to maintain level independent of distance.
 
That may be plausible. The reason I don't agree is because ALL conventional speakers have a falling frequency response (downwards treble tilt) the further you get from the loudspeaker.
A loudspeaker's directivity typically increases with frequency, bass is nearly omnidirectional, treble is beamed forward. That means the on-axis response and the power response (SPL averaged over the whole sphere, i.e. proportional to total radiated power) are not the same shape:

On-axis response: relatively flat, because the tweeter's high directivity concentrates HF energy forward, compensating for the tweeter's naturally lower output.
Power response: falls off toward high frequencies, because even though on-axis output is flat, the total energy radiated into the room at HF is smaller - it's just concentrated into a narrower beam rather than spread over the whole sphere.

In any real room (not an anechoic chamber), what a microphone picks up is the sum of two things:

Direct sound: travels straight from speaker to mic, follows the driver's on-axis directivity pattern, falls off as 1/r (6 dB per doubling of distance) - this component is flat/full-range because directivity concentrates the highs.
Reverberant sound: energy that has already bounced around the room many times before reaching the mic. Its level is nearly uniform throughout the room (roughly constant with distance) and, critically, its spectral content is shaped by the loudspeaker's power response, not its on-axis response - because it's the sum of energy radiated in all directions, most of which was never HF-boosted the way the forward axis was.

Close to the speaker, direct sound dominates, so you measure something close to the flat on-axis response. As you move farther away, direct sound keeps dropping at 6 dB/doubling while the reverberant field stays roughly constant, so beyond the room's "critical distance," the reverberant field which is treble-shy because it reflects the bass-heavy power response starts to dominate the total measured spectrum. The net result: high frequencies appear to droop as distance increases, even though the loudspeaker's directivity is, on-axis, doing exactly what it's supposed to do (keep treble output up).

So the apparent contradiction resolves once we separate two different "sound power" concepts:

Total radiated power at a given frequency (what directivity theory constrains) really is smaller at high frequencies relative to an idealized flat power response, precisely because of the high directivity - a directive tweeter has to work less hard to sound loud on-axis, so its actual power output is comparatively modest.
On-axis SPL stays flat close-up thanks to that directivity, but as the reverberant field (built from the low total power response) takes over the measurement at greater distances, the composite response sags toward the power response's shape.

Two secondary contributors compound this at longer distances specifically:

Air absorption, which scales roughly with frequency, becomes non-negligible over many meters and adds genuine HF loss with distance, independent of directivity or room effects.
Multi-way lobing/interference between drivers can also shift the crossover-region and HF balance depending on measurement distance and angle.

But in a typical room, the reverberant-field effect - driven by the fact that high directivity implies lower total radiated power even while boosting on-axis level - is the dominant reason a speaker's measured response tips toward bass as you move away.
 
You don't need to explain that to me, I know how normal loudspeakers work. What is not explained is why this horn speaker behaves opposite to a conventional speaker: upwards tilting treble with distance, vs. downwards tilting treble for normal speakers. I have an explanation - the horn and the woofer below it are dropping off at different rates according to distance. The explanation is NOT simple "directivity", it is something else. If it WAS directivity, both mid and woofer would be dropping off at the same rate. I still think that my horns (and also the Avantgardes I have heard) have an energy concentrating effect that we are not capturing with conventional measurements. Not to say that it's not measurable, because I have measured it. It's just not described in the literature, as far as I know.
 
Notice how the horns (from about 800Hz up) do not change SPL by very much up to 250cm away from the speaker.
This must be some artifact of the way the measurement was done. Where was the mic placed vertically? If you were to measure the midrange horn by itself with the mic placed such that the angle relative to the horn's axis is constant with distance, I'm sure you'll find the expected 1/r² intensity beyond a few mouth diameters away.

ALL conventional speakers have a falling frequency response (downwards treble tilt) the further you get from the loudspeaker.
Not in an anechoic environment. Once you get beyond the distance where nearfield effects are significant, the spectral shape of the direct sound is constant (assuming lossless propagation; in practice, air has frequency-dependent losses, but the losses are small in the audio band over distances of a few meters).
 
This must be some artifact of the way the measurement was done. Where was the mic placed vertically? If you were to measure the midrange horn by itself with the mic placed such that the angle relative to the horn's axis is constant with distance, I'm sure you'll find the expected 1/r² intensity beyond a few mouth diameters away.

For speaker measurements, I always aim the mic at the speaker. And please take note of the graph, it was measured up to a distance of 3m away. The mouth diameter is 50cm, so that's about 6x mouth diameters. The tweeter is horn loaded as well, and the mouth of the tweeter is about 15-20cm from memory. You can see it is still "projecting" sound at 3m.

Not in an anechoic environment. Once you get beyond the distance where nearfield effects are significant, the spectral shape of the direct sound is constant (assuming lossless propagation; in practice, air has frequency-dependent losses, but the losses are small in the audio band over distances of a few meters).

I presume you are talking about the Rayleigh distance, in which case it's very small for high frequencies. d = (pi*a^2)/lambda, where d is the Rayleigh distance, a is the radius of the speaker driver, and lambda is the wavelength.

Anyway, if you read Ureda's 2004 paper on line arrays, the nearfield is significantly further than the Rayleigh distance, such that in a typical listening room, nearly the entire spectrum is in the acoustic nearfield (defined as SPL decay of 1/r instead of 1/r^2). What I do not know is whether horns do that, and my own measurements suggest that they do. I need to get hold of another horn system and repeat this experiment to be sure.
 
For speaker measurements, I always aim the mic at the speaker.
Not what I meant. If the microphone was placed at the tweeter height, for example, it would be increasingly off the midrange horn axis as it is moved closer to the speaker. Since the horn is fairly high DI, this may be a substantial source of error. Another problem is the phase relationship between the different "ways" when near vs far. This is why I suggested measuring the midrange horn by itself.

it's very small for high frequencies. d = (pi*a^2)/lambda
Since wavelength is in the denominator and is proportional to 1/f, d increases with frequency.

if you read Ureda's 2004 paper on line arrays, the nearfield is significantly further than the Rayleigh distance
The parameter a in your formula should be the largest dimension of the radiator. In a room, the floor and ceiling reflections cause a full-height line array to be effectively mirrored over both boundaries. In other words, it behaves much like an infinite-length line array.
 
You don't need to explain that to me, I know how normal loudspeakers work. What is not explained is why this horn speaker behaves opposite to a conventional speaker: upwards tilting treble with distance, vs. downwards tilting treble for normal speakers. I have an explanation - the horn and the woofer below it are dropping off at different rates according to distance. The explanation is NOT simple "directivity", it is something else. If it WAS directivity, both mid and woofer would be dropping off at the same rate. I still think that my horns (and also the Avantgardes I have heard) have an energy concentrating effect that we are not capturing with conventional measurements. Not to say that it's not measurable, because I have measured it. It's just not described in the literature, as far as I know.

No offense, but I would bet that you have NOT found new physics.
 
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