Upgrading old system, Adcom, Hypex, Yamaha, etc

[JasonRI]

I have been lurking for a few weeks, reading many great discussion, but have become totally bewildered, so I finally registered. Hopefully it is not rude of me to just jump right in with a question. Right now, I am upgrading my very tired old system and struggling with the decision about whether to go with an integrated amp vs. replacing individual components. If this doesn't seem like the right forum for my questions, please feel free to let me know.

After many years of tolerating lo-fi smartphone connections and an okay surround system in my TV room. I want to return to some serious listening in my 20 x 15' living room. I recently went ahead and bought a decent streamer that I like very much and now need to start going through my other components (one at a time unfortunately).

Here is what I have:
--Streamer: Bluesound Node 2i
--Preamp: my Dad's old Adcom GFP-555 ii
--Amp: the tape input on a cheap old Sanyo 20 wpc (my high school amp from 1980!)
--Speakers: ADS L570/2 (100 ohms). My son made off with the gear we drove these with in the late 1980s.

Given this setup, I assume amplification/processing should be highest priority right now. The speakers are my favorite part, but they're old and big, so my amp upgrade needs to accommodate possible speaker replacement. Virtually all of my listening is from files stored locally on my network, ranging from dainty baroque suites and big classical symphonies to modern jazz, punk, and hip hop, sometimes at pretty loud volumes. My ears are 57 years old, but good enough that I still dislike heavily reshaped sound and gimmicky speakers. I can also hear the clipping and distortion that's happening with my current setup at moderate volumes. With this in mind, I am considering several options:

1. Buy a Yamaha A-S501, receiving input from my Adcom pre-amp and bypassing the Yamaha's tone controls
2. Buy the Yamaha, but ditch the Adcom pre-amp
3. Buy a power amp based on Hypex NC252MP (class D, >100 wpc @ 8 ohms), feed it from the Adcom, relying on the DAC that's in the Node 2i for now, and start saving for more components (DAC, speakers, pre-amp).

For #1, I assume bypassing the tone controls does not bypass the DAC, which might be preferable to the Node 2i DAC if I can feeding the digital signal directly to the Yamaha. My main reason for considering #3 is that I want the output headroom for good floor speakers. I realize there will be many opinions on these questions, but I'd be grateful if anyone can point out anything obvious in my thinking that doesn't make sense.

Thanks all,

Jason

 

[samsa]

1. Since you're streaming digital files, I don't see the point of the Adcom (or any other) preamp. At best you're using it for volume control, not source selection. And even your Node 2i has a volume control (and subwoofer out, should that ever be relevant).
2. You would do fine to go from the Node 2i to a Hypex NC252MP power amp to a nice pair of speakers.
3. The SINAD on the Node 2i is not the greatest, but it's way better than the rest of your current system. You'd have to spend quite a lot on the analog part of your audio chain to make any upgrade to the digital part worthwhile.
4. If you were starting from scratch (i.e., hadn't already invested in the Node 2i), I would have suggested considering a pair of KEF LS50W II's, which would have gotten you where you want to go quicker at lower total cost.

 

[JasonRI]

Samsa - thanks for the reply and for reading my LONG post. Your first and second points are exactly the kind of input I needed, and I am interested in more.
#1: I did notice an improvement in my current setup when I added the pre-amp, but maybe that would disappear if my other components were better? Tone controls are sometimes needed, but I guess I could use the ones in the BueOS app that controls the Node 2i.
#2: So, you're saying Node 2i directly to Hypex with no pre-amp? Does this seem better than the Yamaha A-S501 option, with it's supposedly better DAC?
#3: I do plan to eventually spend more, so I will read that review. I don't sit at a desk in a small room when listening to music, and I can rarely tell whether that's what reviewers and commenters are doing. Still, I am forced to rely on reviews before deciding on what to audition and minimizing return shipping hassles and costs.
#4, I can still return the Node 2i - I've only had it for a few days, but I gotta say, I love it. Easy to set up and connect to my files, and very noticeable improvement in sound quality over the other connections I've been using.(e.g., iOS/MacOS --> RCA). However, I have zero experience with other streamers and DACs.
The KEF LS50W II looks really nice, but there ain't no way no how I can drop $2500 (+tax) on a single purchase right now. The $450 speaker stands suggest that the company is targeting a market I don't belong to.
Several sales people have told me that, dollar for dollar, wired passive speakers with quality upstream components are the best route in terms of sound quality. The KEFs add a layer of wireless communication between the two speakers, unless you use an ethernet cable, in which case you're paying for a capability you're not using. And now the splitting of hairs has officially begun.
Thanks again.

 

[Willem]

The cheapest way to stream from Spotify, Tidal etc is to use a Chromecast Audio and connect its digital output to a Yamaha AS501. The CCA has officially been discontinued, but with a bit of effort you can still find one. I also find the CCA very convenient to use (and sonically perfect). That leaves you quite a bit of budget for good speakers such as the Elac BDR62, perhaps with two small additional subwoofers. But even without subs the CCA/Yamaha/Elac combination would get you really good sound for a modest budget. But everything depends on budget: how much do you want to spend?
Of course, there are alternative strategies such as using the Adcom with the analogue output of the CCA and a modern power amplifier.

 

[samsa]

Several sales people have told me that, dollar for dollar, wired passive speakers with quality upstream components are the best route in terms of sound quality.

That is plainly self-serving nonsense.

The price difference between the LS50W II's and their passive counterparts is $1000. You've already spent $500 on the Node 2i. To that, you need to add 230W/ch of class-D amplification, a DSP unit to tweak the frequency-response (don't forget to throw in $75 for a measurement microphone, which you'll need). No way you can do all that for the price of the LS50W II, and doubtful that the resulting SQ would be as good.

I can still return the Node 2i - I've only had it for a few days, but I gotta say, I love it. Easy to set up and connect to my files ...

Ease-of-use has a lot to recommend it. A Raspberry Pi with either a good hat-DAC or an inexpensive, high quality external DAC would save you a couple of hundred, but would definitely not be plug-'n-play like the Node 2i.

#2: So, you're saying Node 2i directly to Hypex with no pre-amp? Does this seem better than the Yamaha A-S501 option, with it's supposedly better DAC?

The Yamaha A-S501 is a perfectly nice integrated amplifier. The Hypex NC252MP is in an entirely different class. I don't know how you can talk about them in the same breath.

The problem here is that you are going about this entirely wrong. Without knowing what speakers you're ultimately going to be driving, it's impossible to decide whether the A-S501 would be adequate to drive them. And you seem to be obsessing over the quality of the DAC (in the Node 2i vs the one in the the A-S501) which is the least important part of the whole equation.

 

[JasonRI]

Samsa - I'll take your word for it that the KEFs are a good deal, but they are still out of reach for me as a one-off purchase.

Regarding Raspberry Pi: I do tinker a bit and have built speakers and crossovers, but that doesn;t mean I understood the circuits. I think I'll stick with plug and play.

When you say the Hypex NC252MP and the Yamaha A-S501 are in different classes, do you mean that 1) they do different things 2) they are class D vs Class A/B; or 3) power amplification in the Hypex is far better than power amplification in the Yamaha? If you mean the latter, then my decision is made.

The comment that I shouldn't obsess about the DAC is noted. But, getting back to the question, What I am seeking is opinions about whether "Node 2i + Hypex" will be as good or better, more expandable, and suitable for a wider range of future speaker options than "Node 2i + Yamaha." I really don't think my existing receiver is going to last long (dusty switches, static, pops after shut-down, distortion, etc), and I would never connect an expensive pair of speakers to it, so I have to deal with the amp situation first, even if it puts the cart before the horse.

 

[samsa]

Here's how I talk about the Hypex NC252MP and the Yamaha A-S501 in the same breath: The reviews of both products can be summed up as "it's a good product given the price." If qualityrice ratio is identical, and price is similar, then quality must be similar.

They are not remotely the same product. One is an integrated amplifier with a built-in DAC from a name-brand manufacturer. The other (assuming you are talking about the price of a Hypex NC252MP amp from one of the "budget" manufacturers hereabouts) is a bare-bones power-amp. You can buy an integrated amplifier, based on one of these Hypex modules, from a name-brand manufacturer, but it would cost you thousands more than the A-S501.

 

[Matias]

It is always good to state how much you are willing to spend and any preferences or restrictions you might have to more or less filter out the suggestions closer to what you want.

 

[Willem]

but it would cost you thousands more than the A-S501.

No it would not, but that is a different story.

The most important thing to realize is that speakers are responsible for almost all of the sound, provided the electronics are good enough, and an amplifier like the Yamaha would be good enough in most cases even if a Hypex power amp will measure better and if you buy the powerful ones can be very powerful. However, good amplifiers like that Yamaha have no sonic signature provided you use them within their specification (i.e. do not need more power). The same is true for streamers and DACs: only very bad gear will sound different. So if budget is tight, avoid spending too much on electronics. Therefore, knowing the approximate budget is indeed useful. My example of the CCA/Yamaha/Elac DBR62 is an example of a strategy to concentrate as much of the budget on the speakers with a resulting system that will be really good. Of course you can spend more on better speakers, on subwoofers, dsp room eq and more powerful amplification, but that adds up.

 

[Vasr]

The ADS were good speakers but can start to show their age with crossover caps at any time. Same issue with the electronics in the Adcom which is kind of obsolete in function while it was way above the receivers and integrated units in its time. The amp is the weakest link at the moment.

Simplest path for now would be to replace the preamp and amp with a 80+w/8ohms integrated amp (which you can get with a very small budget) and put it between the Node 2i and speakers. This should do until you figure out your entire upgraded chain for the next decade. NAD, Parasound, Cambridge Audio, etc all have inexpensive tiers for this or can get good deals and may even include a DAC for a digital input. Fix the price range for now to spend the minimum as an interim solution.

The reason you don't want to go any more complicated or expensive than that is that you need to think about your entire upgrade requirements so that you don't buy something more expensive that will be problematic to incorporate later.

The main things that would influence your decisions would be:
1. Would you want to add a sub in the future or get a full range tower? This would make the electronic chain very different in terms of component suitability.
2. What kind of control/UI would you like over the streaming of your music content?
3. Would you like to include room correction into your chain? This can result in significant improvements and make use of tone controls obsolete.
4. Would you need surround capability in the future?
5. What speakers would be in contention?
6. What is your total budget?

The above can be done as a paper design first to figure out feasibility and budget. Based on that you can figure out the type and number of components in the chain. There is typically more than one solution for the chain with trade-offs.

 

[Willem]

Consider returning the Node and get a CCA. It will save you money. The built in DAC of the CCA is fine.

 

[Wes]

amplification/processing should not be highest priority - you want better speakers; active if affordable

as per above, what is the budget?

 

[JasonRI]

Thank you Willem, Vasr and Wes for the constructive suggestions and questions. If I return the Node 2i, I'd have about $1k I can spend right now. I can probably spend another $2k in the next 2-3 years. The CCA + integrated amp sounds like something I should consider. With the Node 2i, the files I index and play back thru BlueOS are on iOS and MacOS devices. Occasionally, I stream radio or Apple Music over the Airplay 2 connection, which seems far better than bluetooth. My understanding is that anything other than Airplay 2 from iOS/MacOS will resort to high compression bluetooth codecs (i.e., not AAC or AptX). I think this is why I noticed such an improvement with the Node 2i, even though I haven't even tried direct streaming from Tidal, etc., and probably never will. How would the CCA work in terms of connections, codecs, and software for indexing music and controlling playback from an iPhone or Mac? Is there some reading material you can point me toward? I am intrigued by this solution, so I hope it is not too much to ask for a little more guidance.

 

[Chrispy]

The CCA is just a wifi enabled playback device, it offers no organization per se, you'd organize on your computer/pad/phone and just direct the stream to the CCA. Not an apple guy so no experience with the CCA there (but have three of them to work with both old analog gear and modern gear without wifi....I don't use bluetooth except in my truck....but one nice feature of multiple CCAs is you can via Google Home play them all simultaneously with same source). I even still have my Adcom preamp like yours which works fine (but don't use much as it lacks digital capabilities).

 

[samsa]

I would keep the Node 2i.

For that budget, the Node 2i + a Hypex NC252MP amplifier + a pair of passive KEF LS50 Meta speaker + an SVS subwoofer would get you about as much bang for your buck as you can get (given that you can't drop it all at once). If you got the LS50's at their Black-Friday price, you could add a MiniDSP unit, a measurement mic and do some serious room-correction.

 

[Slobmw]

Chromecast and airplay don’t mix easily as far as I know. I fooled around with it at one point and installed various software to bridge the gap. It was kludgy. Tidal and chromecast on the other hand should work fine I use qobuz and cast without a hitch, and I believe cast is integrated into both apps. The raspberry pi can do airplay as well as anything elseyou care to set it up for. Volumio seems to be a good tool for the pi as streamer.

I’d push three priorities as long term goals. 1. The best speakers you are comfortable with - and even a few hundred dollars can get you something to make you grin like a fool when you listen to them. - because it’s easiest to start with a mechanical sound machine that just works out of the box. 2. The most pleasant control interface you can justify/find for your needs - mostly can you set it up to deliver your music (stream, local digital library, etc) without you putting on your sysadmin hat every 5 minutes, but it should also be fun to use, imho. 3. dsp to make the most of our flawed rooms, seating/speaker positions and ears. The rest is “just” logistics. ie, as long as it works adequately, you should just forget it’s there.

 

[Vasr]

Thank you Willem, Vasr and Wes for the constructive suggestions and questions. If I return the Node 2i, I'd have about $1k I can spend right now. I can probably spend another $2k in the next 2-3 years. The CCA + integrated amp sounds like something I should consider. With the Node 2i, the files I index and play back thru BlueOS are on iOS and MacOS devices. Occasionally, I stream radio or Apple Music over the Airplay 2 connection, which seems far better than bluetooth. My understanding is that anything other than Airplay 2 from iOS/MacOS will resort to high compression bluetooth codecs (i.e., not AAC or AptX). I think this is why I noticed such an improvement with the Node 2i, even though I haven't even tried direct streaming from Tidal, etc., and probably never will. How would the CCA work in terms of connections, codecs, and software for indexing music and controlling playback from an iPhone or Mac? Is there some reading material you can point me toward? I am intrigued by this solution, so I hope it is not too much to ask for a little more guidance.

A device with built-in CCA offers the best integration since it can be integrated with the remote that comes with it.

I would keep the Node 2i.
For that budget, the Node 2i + a Hypex NC252MP amplifier + a pair of passive KEF LS50 Meta speaker + an SVS subwoofer would get you about as much bang for your buck as you can get (given that you can't drop it all at once). If you got the LS50's at their Black-Friday price, you could add a MiniDSP unit, a measurement mic and do some serious room-correction.

I agree with the above as the best value for the buck.

Alternate potential upgrade paths would be

Cambridge Audio CXN V2 at the sub $1k level (discounted) for the best combination of streaming features, aesthetics and upgrade flexibility. It supports more streaming possibilities than most units supporting Air Play 2 and CCA built-in and with balanced outs.

But then for a few hundred more and with Dirac room correction, you can get the miniDSP SHD that is also easier to integrate a sub with. It has less streaming possibilities than the CXN but may be sufficient for your purposes or not. But it would be the best bang for the buck at the $1k-$3k levels.

 

[samsa]

But then for a few hundred more and with Dirac room correction, you can get the miniDSP SHD that is also easier to integrate a sub with.

If he's keeping the Node 2i, then he doesn't need the streaming capabilities of the SHD series. A DDRC-24 (with Dirac Live) or a 2x4 HD (without Dirac Live) inserted between the Node 2i and the amplifier (+ sub) would be more in line with his budget.

 

[Vasr]

If he's keeping the Node 2i, then he doesn't need the streaming capabilities of the SHD series. A DDRC-24 (with Dirac Live) or a 2x4 HD (without Dirac Live) inserted between the Node 2i and the amplifier (+ sub) would be more in line with his budget.

Yes, those upgrade paths were in lieu of the Node 2i (while it is still returnable). Just giving some ideas of what one might get at the next price levels with better streaming flexibility or one-box integration, or better remote functionality without a pre-amp in the middle, etc. Not just the cheapest, theoretically feasible solution.

When I buy anything, I always like to look at how much I would have to spend to get the next level up and what that would give me and whether trade-offs are worth it.

 

[JasonRI]

This is all incredibly helpful. The CXN V2 looks great for ~$1K but I'd still need to replace my amp very soon. So for now, some possible paths that keep me around $1k in "Year One" of my journey are:

1) Node + bare bones NC252MP. This requires volume control via BlueOS app, which scares me given the amp output. Should I be scared? I guess I could leave the Adcom preamp in there for some volume control and peace of mind. Just a guess.
2) Return the Node and buy an integrated NC252MP-based amp with "internal" streamer. The example here would be around $1k.
3) Return the Node and go the CCA route. Based on other threads, it looks like this could be a rabbit hole due to ongoing software and service updates that cause compatibility issues and require frequent troubleshooting.

Option #2 makes me wonder whether there are any USA-sourced options for integrated NC252MP-based amp with "internal" streamer for ~$1k. Going overseas for one of these could cause headaches down the road. Not totally stuck on NC252MP, if there are comparable options.