Upgrading my Denon AVR and other questions

[EWL5]

@WaynesterUK , analog connections TO your AVR could exhibit weakness as this makes the AVR little more than a low gain amp. I'm surprised the digital connection gave you the same issue as well!

Having said that, the Denon 2xxx line isn't going to give you the power you crave. You'd want at least a 4800 or 6800 to put a smile on your face, I think!

 

[quattro98]

The weakest equipment link in most systems is the speakers. Lots of speakers deviate from a linear response. There aren't a lot of reviews on Monitor Audio, but here's a couple (none are your exact speakers).

Monitor Audio Silver 100 Review (Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Monitor Audio Silver 100 bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and was just discontinued. It still sells for $799. As you see, the Silver 100 is a very attractive speaker. It feels substantial compared to more budget speakers...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Monitor Audio Silver 50 7g Bookshelf Speaker Review

Monitor Audio Silver 50 7g Bookshelf Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

In your room, you can add a bigger rug and maybe some curtains to help with the highs. Then using EQ or tone controls to tailor the sound should help.

 

[yelloguy]

My 2 floor standing speakers are Monitor Audio Bronze 500’s, yes I’ve tried pure direct mode listening to music 2 channel mode, it’s rubbish

Sorry, but I would stop right here. If your speakers are rubbish, how do you think a new AVR will fix them?

 

[Golfx]

You look to be a UK resident. I believe perhaps your tastes have matured and you no longer “like” what you hear from you CD player via your speakers. Why don’t you visit one of Richer Sounds locations and listen to different speakers, your speakers different sources & amps, and then buy accordingly. You have a “bright sound” (harsh?) looking room. Perhaps nothing more than a room EQ software improvement will deliver what you are after. Richer Sounds has a presence on AVforums in the UK. Start a query over there and key @richersounds.

 

[Oddball]

I don’t think speakers are rubbish based on the reviews, but it is possible that OP became sensitive to its sound due to many reasons.

If that is the case, good luck. There is so much choice for upgrades it becomes paralysis. One thing that keeps me sane is that I don’t want to leave my center much behind my LR, so with that screen, the choice becomes limited to certain extent. Not relevant to stereo systems but relevant to hybrid HT and stereo systems.

 

[Chrispy]

If you can show us at least the Audy measurements (you have the $20 app?), that might help. Audy would have detected your in room response and it could indicate where the problem is. For mids there is also setting for mid-range dip and most people turn that off, but should be checked what sounds better.

A 2200 can't use the editor app, so can't eliminate the BBC dip either. Denon models Xx300 and above can use the app.

 

[Oddball]

A 2200 can't use the editor app, so can't eliminate the BBC dip either. Denon models Xx300 and above can use the app.

Well, that is unfortunate and a good reason to upgrade. Can't imagine that by now 3700H would be more than $500. But then when upgrading, $1K for 3800H with both Dirac and Audy plus 4 subs out is a valid alternative.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Well, that is unfortunate and a good reason to upgrade. Can't imagine that by now 3700H would be more than $500. But then when upgrading, $1K for 3800H with both Dirac and Audy plus 4 subs out is a valid alternative.

I’m now looking at spending a bit more, but can’t afford a new one, trying to find a Denon AVR-X4700 (a used model)

 

[Chrispy]

Well, that is unfortunate and a good reason to upgrade. Can't imagine that by now 3700H would be more than $500. But then when upgrading, $1K for 3800H with both Dirac and Audy plus 4 subs out is a valid alternative.

For someone that actually wants to use Audyssey app, or buy a Dirac license and/or has four subs.... But the 3700 still closer to $1k and $1.7k for the 3800.

 

[yelloguy]

I’m now looking at spending a bit more, but can’t afford a new one, trying to find a Denon AVR-X4700 (a used model)

I guess you are ignoring the advice you are getting.

One quick thing - make sure you don't have lossy music source or bluetooth in the chain. Please play a CD or FLAC file using cables.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Well, that is unfortunate and a good reason to upgrade. Can't imagine that by now 3700H would be more than $500. But then when upgrading, $1K for 3800H with both Dirac and Audy plus 4 subs out is a valid alternative.

I’m now looking at spending a bit more, but can’t afford a new one, trying to find a Denon AVR-X4700 (a used model

 

[WaynesterUK]

I’ve attached my settings for my System, pretty sure it’s all good my end, currently listening to to a Music CD through the Denon, crystal clear but still lacks “fullness” I’ve tried Pure Direct Mode and then back to the AVR in Stereo, I’ve got the Marantz CD Player connected to back of the Denon using decent analogue cables, and it’s also connected via optical, I can switch between BOTH modes on the input assign.. sounds better (to me) using the Analogue option… suppose that’s normal?

Excuse me sitting down having my lunch

 

[napfkuchen]

@WaynesterUK , analog connections TO your AVR could exhibit weakness as this makes the AVR little more than a low gain amp. I'm surprised the digital connection gave you the same issue as well!

Having said that, the Denon 2xxx line isn't going to give you the power you crave. You'd want at least a 4800 or 6800 to put a smile on your face, I think!

The specs for x3800 and x4800 show that the "power-up" is less than 20%, it won't be a noticable upgrade for 500 Euro more. Better get the x3800 and buy a power amp if needed.

 

[yelloguy]

Thanks for sharing the settings. Have you run a full Audyssey calibration?

In Pure Direct mode, the Denon is using just your two speakers full range (no cross over). Since you say it sounds thin, I am assuming your front bookshelves are topping out at higher frequencies.

The only thing that can help you is to fill in the lower frequencies with a sub. Which is where Stereo mode comes in. It routes all the frequencies below crossover (in your case set to 80Hz) to the sub. You have your sub set to -2.5dB. This could be because your sub has a volume knob set to high on the sub, or for many other reasons. But it could also be the reason for the sub not filling in like it is supposed to.

I would play with turning the sub up. But it is tricky as some subs stand out and don't blend well with the main speakers. But this is your ticket to a fuller sound. You can do this now, or you can (needlessly) buy another AVR and do it then.

If I was going the AVR route, I would get one with DIRAC and see if it does better at blending the sub with my mains.

The best solution of course is to get new speakers that go down to 40. The kind that you can enjoy in Pure Direct mode. But you think you can make these sound better with a new AVR.

 

[Oddball]

Not sure how it works on your AVR, but there should be specific setting for 2 ch listening that would also need to be set. You might have set 5.1 but 2.1 might not be set and not sure what default is. These should show as separate menu settings, at least they do on my AVP and I can set pretty much anything I want for the 2 ch mode. Having speakers set to small and add the sub seems sensible for 2 ch mode if mains are not that capable.

Pure direct would disengage DSP and potentially bass management (I think - don't use it really so not an expert), so probably not the best idea without monster fronts.

If your AVR supports smartphone/internet setup it might actually be easier to use that than on TV screen menus.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Thanks for sharing the settings. Have you run a full Audyssey calibration?

In Pure Direct mode, the Denon is using just your two speakers full range (no cross over). Since you say it sounds thin, I am assuming your front bookshelves are topping out at higher frequencies.

The only thing that can help you is to fill in the lower frequencies with a sub. Which is where Stereo mode comes in. It routes all the frequencies below crossover (in your case set to 80Hz) to the sub. You have your sub set to -2.5dB. This could be because your sub has a volume knob set to high on the sub, or for many other reasons. But it could also be the reason for the sub not filling in like it is supposed to.

I would play with turning the sub up. But it is tricky as some subs stand out and don't blend well with the main speakers. But this is your ticket to a fuller sound. You can do this now, or you can (needlessly) buy another AVR and do it then.

If I was going the AVR route, I would get one with DIRAC and see if it does better at blending the sub with my mains.

The best solution of course is to get new speakers that go down to 40. The kind that you can enjoy in Pure Direct mode. But you think you can make these sound better with a new AVR.

Yes I’ve run Audyssey calibration

The bass frequencies on movies, blu ray music dvds are fine, sounds really good, it’s just CD Listening that’s a bit “thin” you can’t change EQ on the 2200 when listening to CD’s, I don’t think ?

Anyway, my Monitor Audio Bronze 500 are easily good enough speakers… here’s a few specs attached

Unless it’s worth just keeping my Denon 2200 and selling my Bronze 500? which means I’d have to sell my complete system

 

[Golfx]

There is a difference going on in your listening bias.

First and foremost you are expecting the CD presentations to sound “thin”. This expectation leads to a human brain dysfunction called “expectation bias”. Second you likewise expect DVDs and movies to not sound “thin”. This expectation bias is extremely powerful in changing what we think we hear instead of what is presented. The fact that the latter do not sound thin means your system is fine.

AND/OR I suspect the CD presentations you are listening to are inferior recordings to what you want to hear. Do you ever hear CD presentations that you do like? Have you tried “streaming” a similar recording instead of listening to the CD? Does not your DVD player also play CDs? Perhaps your CD player is just not letting you hear what you prefer. Try listening to the CD on your DVD player.

BTW, the room EQ occurs in the AVR after the source and before arriving at the speaker. I find “pure direct” presentations very colorless and boring. Others delight in the perfectness of just that.

 

[yelloguy]

Thanks for the specs. I was too lazy to look them up. A couple of suggestions:

Since your fronts go down to 60Hz, lower your cross over to 60 or even 40.

Try and change your bass management to LFE+Main (it is currently set to LFE)

Re-run the Audyssey calibration with maximum seats allowed. You can run it multiple times on different days as some calibrations are better than others.

Increase the sub level from -2.5 in 1dB increments and listen to a few songs - then repeat. Do this until bass is too much, then back out 1 dB.

blu ray music dvds are fine, sounds really good

That is easy to do. But they have a separate .1 track that takes care of the bass. A sound mixer essentially gave you a separate bass track. With music you only got 2 tracks and your AVR is doing the separation for you. It is a bit harder to set this up right.

If all the above fails, I would look for new speakers before I get a new AVR.

 

[Oddball]

Investing in speakers is a long term investment. I still enjoy my 15+ year old speakers that were the base of my 5.1/7.1 theatre. Amps that ran them, still run my entire 9.5.4 system. Would not be surprised if they last another 10 years, or minimum 5. Obviously newly made stuff tends to break more easily, but still these things last.

Processors or AVRs tend to last less due to tech advancement (not necessarily failure), but at current state, new AVRs/AVPs should be good for another 5-7 years as nothing earth-shaking is on horizon.

You should first make sure you got your 2 channel settings right before you sell the whole ranch. Bigger ranch is always better but not necessarily needed.

 

[WaynesterUK]

I tell you what I’ve noticed, the newer upgraded models seem to be unreliable, dunno what these people have done ‍ (see attached pics)

My 2200 has never given me any problems ever

I’ll have a play with my settings, but for now I’ll put up with it all until I move to my new home at the end of November

Thanks for the speaker recommendations, I have a bit of money to play with but not a great deal