upgrading ancient system

[mianake]

Hi,
I have an ancient set up, and little knowledge of audio equipment. We currently stream a lot of music in our kitchen and next room with computers. There is a counter with a passthrough between the two , and we either stream from echo dot, phone, or now from the iphone to an old Denon receiver (MS-50) and Mission speakers (8VEt). It is easy enuf to turn the speakers depending on where we are (or just not bother). I have thought about upgrading for 1500-2000 total, but open to more.

After doing a lot of AI research, I came up with getting 1. Wiim Pro plus, 2. Topping EV70 or Schiite Modius, and then maybe a new amp and maybe Elac 2.0DB speakers. Oddly, one AI said WIIM and Topping worked well together, and another said it didn't. I saw one post here that indicated WIIM had a good enough DAC, and no real need to get more.

We do like voice control, but would prefer to keep our phone out of the equation since it seems it would both eat up battery and have some downside re talking on the phone, using it for other things etc.

Given all this, the only reason I can see to get the Topping is the marginally? better DAC, and the fact that it seems to have a preamp, which means that if I later want to buy an amp, I can get one that isn't integrated (assuming that is even doable for my budget). Moreover, it would seem that with the Topping we would still get a Wiim with optical outputs to keep our phones out of the loop. But then couldt we just get a Topping L70,or similar that is a nonintegrated amp. in contrast as I understand it, if we go with the Wiim pro plus, we need an integrated amp.

Also, we do not use headphones, or have any interest in starting with them in the house. My wife does use them at the gym. So that leaves another question - I have read that headphone amps don't power speakers, but then see some amps called headphone amps (like the Topping L70) can power speakers.

Any and all suggestions welcome on any or all components but first trying to focus on streaming device and DAC.

thanks very much

 

[alex-z]

Most of the WiiM units have excellent DAC performance, no need for an external unit. WiiM Amp for $300 is a good option if you want a single piece solution.

WiiM Amp Streaming Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Amp streaming amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $299. I was pleasantly surprised by the good bit of weight this small box has. It will help it not slide with the weight of the speaker wires and such. Back panel shows...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amazon.com

WiiM Ultra gives you more IO but no integrated amplifier.

https://www.amazon.com/WiiM-Streamer-Touchscreen-Compatible-Headphone/dp/B0D41YCLW8

There are some speaker amplifiers with headphone outputs, Topping L70 is not one of them. If you feel the need for a headphone amp I would purchase a dedicated unit like a JDS Labs Atom+.

JDS Atom Amp+ Review (Headphone Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JDS Labs Atom Amp+ headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $99. It was announced today. The Amp+ follows the same recent industrial design in JDS amps and dacs: It is light but functional. Dual gains are provided...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Atom Amp+ _ Shop JDS LABS

Conceived as the next-generation replacement to Objective2, Atom builds on more than a decade of amplifier design evolution at JDS Labs. Atom Amp+ tops the award winning Atom Amp with hand matched potentiometers and even higher performance, and comes fully loaded with a smooth 1/4" headphone...

jdslabs.com

Your budget is enough for some high-end bookshelf speakers like KEF Q-Concerto Meta. If you have space available I would augment them with a subwoofer to extend the bass response and improve overall dynamic range.

KEF Q-Concerto Meta PAIR 6.5" 3-Way Bookshelf Speakers White

KEF Recertified Product

www.accessories4less.com

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-QqaDtdsAgfm/p_946PB1KPBA/SVS-PB-1000-Pro-Black-Ash.html

 

[voodooless]

First off, spend most of your efforts and budget on speakers. They are by far the biggest influence on sound, next to your room. The latter means that you need to have something that can help you tame the room. And you’re on the right track with the WiiM products, because they provide room correction and/or custom EQ, as well as a subwoofer output.

The question is, do you really need an external DAC? The higher-end WiiM models already offer excellent performance. You will not hear the difference. The main advantage of an external DAC is XLR output. All the WiiM devices also offer volume control, so no need for a pre-amp either. And then you have WiiM amp (ultra), offering an all-in-one solution of excellent quality at a reasonable price.

Having said that, an external amp can have advantages. You can replace it or the streamer separately, and may offer more power if you need it.

As for speakers, have a look at KEF of AsciLab. Or have a look at:

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

Dial in your budget, and see what comes on top.

You might also consider active speakers and skip the amp.

 

[DrTom]

Honestly I think you'd be perfectly well served with a Wiim Amp Ultra then spending the rest on speakers.

 

[JustJones]

Keep it simple

Sonos Five Smart Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, and detailed measurements of the SONOS Five streaming wired/wireless smart multi-room speaker. It was kindly drop shipped by a member and costs US $549. The Five is solidly built and feels rather substantial in hand. Packaging is always is apple-like...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[kemmler3D]

I agree with the posts so far. Wiim units will be good enough on their own unless you have a specific reason to add a dac.

Allocate your budget to speakers and you'll get the most improvement to sound that way.

Also keep in mind that AI has apparently been trained on unscientific nonsense (read: marketing BS that's been passed off as audio knowledge for decades) and will often give you conflicting or wrong advice.

 

[mianake]

Thanks for your responses.

I had never heard of Spinorama, and suppose I could spend lots of time trying to understand all the charts and specs. But it seems to rank them on "tonality", and based on that alone, it seems the highest rated speaker for what I might spend is the Ascend Acoustics Sierra - LX. Not only does it seem to have great tonality, but it seems to have decent bass, say in comparison to the KEFs.

I suppose many will say I need to listen to them, and I don't disagree. But I must say that when I went with a friend to look at some he was interested long ago, very few places had more than a couple speakers to listen to, and almost never at the same price points. They might have Y brrand floors at 1500 and X brank book shelves at 700, leaving me having a hard time what I learned other than the floor sounded better.
So unless I can listen to 3 or 4 that I want at the same time, it seems hard to assess the differences. For that matter, a post here on Wiim Ultra amp vs Wiim Amp suggest that even these comparisons are often fraught.

In any case, based on the above responses, I am thinking that maybe the solution for me is the Wiim Ultra Amp and the Ascend Sierra - LX. I will of course read up more on them.

any thoughts, Mianake

PS. @voodooless , in another post on Feb 5, you said "sound quality should not be a deciding factor in your quest." Can you elaborate, or point me to some other posts.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

1500-2000 total

1500-2000 whats?

 

[RexrothPigeon]

PS. @voodooless , in another post on Feb 5, you said "sound quality should not be a deciding factor in your quest." Can you elaborate, or point me to some other posts.

that's about amps, which all sound the same unless they are incompetently designed or broken

 

[Chrispy]

AI research in audio actually requires great experience in audio to discern the bullshit the search engine is very likely to spew.

 

[Doublej]

Sounds like a situation calling for a pair of KEF LSX II, KEF LSX II LT or similar speakers. These are active speakers with built in streaming, Bluetooth and AirPlay. No other hardware is needed, other than a phone or tablet with their control app.

 

[kemmler3D]

Thanks for your responses.

I had never heard of Spinorama, and suppose I could spend lots of time trying to understand all the charts and specs. But it seems to rank them on "tonality", and based on that alone, it seems the highest rated speaker for what I might spend is the Ascend Acoustics Sierra - LX. Not only does it seem to have great tonality, but it seems to have decent bass, say in comparison to the KEFs.

I suppose many will say I need to listen to them, and I don't disagree. But I must say that when I went with a friend to look at some he was interested long ago, very few places had more than a couple speakers to listen to, and almost never at the same price points. They might have Y brrand floors at 1500 and X brank book shelves at 700, leaving me having a hard time what I learned other than the floor sounded better.
So unless I can listen to 3 or 4 that I want at the same time, it seems hard to assess the differences. For that matter, a post here on Wiim Ultra amp vs Wiim Amp suggest that even these comparisons are often fraught.

In any case, based on the above responses, I am thinking that maybe the solution for me is the Wiim Ultra Amp and the Ascend Sierra - LX. I will of course read up more on them.

any thoughts, Mianake

PS. @voodooless , in another post on Feb 5, you said "sound quality should not be a deciding factor in your quest." Can you elaborate, or point me to some other posts.

I don't see anything wrong with this approach, the Ascend Sierra line is very well regarded and I get the impression their owners are generally quite happy. As far as WiiM goes, I have about 6 of their units in my house... what can I say, the hardware and app delivers a lot of bang for buck.

The only caveat is that if you want to listen very loud, the WiiM amp doesn't offer as much juice as the speakers can take.

With that combination, 1w will get you 87dB at 1m (this is pretty loud) and 100w will get you 110dB (extremely loud) but the speakers can take up to 500w for 117dB. This is noticeably louder but subjectively and objectively not anywhere near 5x louder.

If you want to rock out and you want to do so more than 10 feet from the speaker, you may consider going for a bigger amp*. If you are mostly going to listen at levels best described as "reasonable" then this setup will probably serve you quite well.

* In that case I'd go for a WiiM Pro / Ultra and a Buckeye Hypex NCx500 amp, FWIW.

 

[voodooless]

With that combination, 1w will get you 87dB at 1m (this is pretty loud) and 100w will get you 110dB (extremely loud) but the speakers can take up to 500w for 117dB. This is noticeably louder but subjectively and objectively not anywhere near 5x louder.

I think they may be exaggerating the power handling quite a bit. A 6.5” driver cannot handle 350W, let alone 500W cleanly. Erin’s review clearly proves that this is not a good idea. But none of this makes it a bad speaker, it just means a smaller amp is perfectly fine.

 

[voodooless]

Also note that the preference scores have a pretty wide margin. So it’s really worth considering multiple models and consider looks, fit/finish and partner approval

 

[mianake]

1500-2000 whats?

$$

If you want to rock out and you want to do so more than 10 feet from the speaker, you may consider going for a bigger amp*. If you are mostly going to listen at levels best described as "reasonable" then this setup will probably serve you quite well.

* In that case I'd go for a WiiM Pro / Ultra and a Buckeye Hypex NCx500 amp, FWIW.

I don't think we need more amp, since we don't listen very loud music,
But that does raiase

Also note that the preference scores have a pretty wide margin. So it’s really worth considering multiple models and consider looks, fit/finish and partner approval

Yes, I am still considering others, including the Elac 2.0 book shelf, Kef and whatever else I might listen to at Bestbuy or other places. Also I wonder about Elac floor speakers for a price similar to the Ascend bookshelves. As I mentioned our bookshelves currently sit on a counter between our computer room that is roughly 9ft wide before partially opening to the kitchen area with a 4' door opening and 5'x 2' passthru opening. Thus the speaker are about 4' apart.

With some effort, we could put floorstanders in the computer room, but as mentioned it is 9' wide, and 1. I don't know how far we would need to sit to avoid being blased (is 3 ' enuf? and 2. whether this would degrade the sound a lot in the kitchen due to distance and the limited openings noted above.

thanks again, Mianake
s

 

[DanielT]

You might also consider active speakers and skip the amp.

Like these:

Palmer ORBIT 11 Cardioid Coaxial 3-way studio monitor (MSRP 799€/899$)

Well then, this is a splash, this monitor basically throws all the en vogue technologies in a single product and does it at a price that is impressively low for its reported capability. And it looks really nice too. Official description (link): The Palmer ORBIT 11 is an active coaxial 3-way...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Which are within TS's budget.

 

[mianake]

Thanks again.

Since we are currently using our phone or pc to stream hi - res radio (we had used free Spotify), I thought I would start with upgrading the DAC and/or Denon old receiver.
Here are two suggested options both of which seem very good at the respective price ranges.

Honestly I think you'd be perfectly well served with a Wiim Amp Ultra then spending the rest on speakers.

The only caveat is that if you want to listen very loud, the WiiM amp doesn't offer as much juice as the speakers can take.

If you want to rock out and you want to do so more than 10 feet from the speaker, you may consider going for a bigger amp*. If you are mostly going to listen at levels best described as "reasonable" then this setup will probably serve you quite well.

* In that case I'd go for a WiiM Pro / Ultra and a Buckeye Hypex NCx500 amp, FWIW.

We currently have an old Denon UM-45 reciever amp unit. According to the manual it has 60W power consumption, and one site says 30W per channel. Our MIssion 8vet speakers say 15-75 amp per channel. We just played some rock with the pc volume at the max, and the Denon, which goes to 34 on the volume tab. It was too loud for us at 27, and that was much louder than normall listen to. we are now listiening at 28 on the pc, and the same on Denon and that is about as loud as we like. (Btw, i have no idea what either number means, it just is available on the respective units.)

My question, given the limited wattage of the Denon as compared to the 100w Wiim Amp, and the fact we don't even like the Denon sound maxed out (in terms of decibels), is there any reason for us to get more amps with the Buckeye.

Not yet mentioned is that I am a few months shy of 70, and my wife is a bit younger but has worse hearing. I don't know how that figures into all this.

If the bigger amp is still desirable, costwise I am thinking the NC500 rather than the newer NCx500. I assume either is a massive upgrade from what we have.

thank you Mianake

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks again.

Since we are currently using our phone or pc to stream hi - res radio (we had used free Spotify), I thought I would start with upgrading the DAC and/or Denon old receiver.
Here are two suggested options both of which seem very good at the respective price ranges.


We currently have an old Denon UM-45 reciever amp unit. According to the manual it has 60W power consumption, and one site says 30W per channel. Our MIssion 8vet speakers say 15-75 amp per channel. We just played some rock with the pc volume at the max, and the Denon, which goes to 34 on the volume tab. It was too loud for us at 27, and that was much louder than normall listen to. we are now listiening at 28 on the pc, and the same on Denon and that is about as loud as we like. (Btw, i have no idea what either number means, it just is available on the respective units.)

My question, given the limited wattage of the Denon as compared to the 100w Wiim Amp, and the fact we don't even like the Denon sound maxed out (in terms of decibels), is there any reason for us to get more amps with the Buckeye.

Not yet mentioned is that I am a few months shy of 70, and my wife is a bit younger but has worse hearing. I don't know how that figures into all this.

If the bigger amp is still desirable, costwise I am thinking the NC500 rather than the newer NCx500. I assume either is a massive upgrade from what we have.

thank you Mianake

Is that a max or nominal power consumption in the Denon receiver? Seems it would need a bit more than a 60w power supply. If at fairly high levels you don't like the sound only because of volume, that's different than if the amp is the limiting factor (if it is going into clipping or something). The numbers on the volume scale don't mean much; I don't even find any info on the UM-45 or any spec for your speakers otoh. Whether the Wiim amp or a Wiim pro with power amp will do anything for you, hard to know, especially if your listening levels are fairly low? Download an spl meter app on your phone and provide some idea of your listening levels?

 

[Timcognito]

Advice so far is very good and one can sort ASR reviews in the Review Index. Select Review Index (upper left) -> click loudspeakers (in banner) -> Search Box (type bands you like or not) -> Sort (click column headers of interest, maybe price) -> Read comments of one's you have interest (Much information is there to answer the same concerns and interests that you may have as posters are often consumers that have hands on experience after a purchase). Come back with questions, take your time and audition before buying if possible.

Also Erin's Audio Corner website and YT channel has many reviews, almost all are speakers. His style is more verbal explaining technical measurements in detail which for beginners may be helpful.

Good Luck

 

[mianake]

Is that a max or nominal power consumption in the Denon receiver? Seems it would need a bit more than a 60w power supply.

lol, i have no idea of the answer, or for that matter the difference. Sorry.

The numbers on the volume scale don't mean much; I don't even find any info on the UM-45 or any spec for your speakers otoh.

I have the manual, and it says nothing other than 60w power consumption. Another site said "30W+30W output (at 6 ohms). 8 times oversampling digital filter."

Leo (Ai on brave) says the speakers art 15-75 w, 6 ohms, 75HZ -20Khz, 88 db sensitiity, and designed to for balanced sound, noted for good imagin esp in small to medium sized rooms.

"Download an spl meter app on your phone and provide some idea of your listening levels?

I feel like kid in a candy store. Until a few days ago, we were playing ECho Dot thru Denon, until we learned phone or pc was better connection. It was quite noticeable! And I never heard of hi res radio, which is tons better than free spotify. Now I learned both OTOH, and Spm. We are currently using an android app for SPM and very happy with 63 av. db and max 98.1. At 70 it is a little loud for us. However, as mentioned at outset, the speakers on a counter between two rooms, and this is the smaller one. When we go in kitchen 68 avg seems about max we like