Upgrading a 2000€ amp with a 4000€ amp?

[TheBatsEar]

Got a question in my inbox about a Yamaha A-S 1100, maybe you might enjoy it and be able to give your opinion as well.

Anyway, here is the question:

Hi, I am asking you here because whenever I try to ask the question, people conclude I do not like my AS1100
Some audiophiles on my European forum sent me directly to costly Accuphase, which in my view is a great compliment to Yamaha

So, as a Yamaha connoisseur, what would you think would be the way (if any) to an audible upgrade, strictly as amplification ?!
I am a plug n play non-technical guy...
I am looking long term either to class A, or mono-blocks + preamp, any ideas ?

This was my answer:

You have correctly identified me, i am a Yamaha connoisseur, hope you enjoy my rather unaudiophile opinion:
I don't think you can get an audible "upgrade" (assuming your speakers aren't something exotic) to a A-S 1100. It's a neutral and competent pre-amp/power-amp combination. I even believe you could replace your A-S1100 with a A-S500/501 and not experience audible degradation in sound quality, in a blind test.


If you have very high sensitivity speakers you might hear a faint hiss during silence with the A-S1100, this could be solved with one of the Hypex or Purifi Class D power amps. These things have comically low THD+N. The hiss comes from the power amp section in the A-S1100, so it's theoretically worth it to hook up a Hypex amp to "pre out", thus not using the Yamaha power amp section.
I did that, and indeed, the hiss was reduced.
However, i didn't hear it while sitting on my sofa, only when putting my ear directly to the tweeter and set volume to full. So i sent the Hypex module back, it's not worth it to me.


So why do i then use a A-S1200 and not a cheaper A-S500/501? What can i say, i like the nice things. Nothing boosts a mans confidence than nice VU meter and over 25kg of metal in the rack.

I think your friends are "audiofools" for recommending Accuphase amps as an audible upgrade, and i would instead recommend to invest in speakers, room correction and room treatment. 2000€ in room treatment can make a real and obvious difference. 2000€ more in amplification? I don't think so.

Opinions?

 

[yzbythesea]

Hi, I am also interested in getting a Yamaha as 1200. How is the build quality? Does top panel flex when you push it?

 

[GXAlan]

Pure opinion, and we need facts.
1) Accuphase amps (above the entry level tested here) have generally very low noise. The E-280 is a big step up over the E-270
2) Accuphase is a “membership” fee. You pay for decades of serviceability since they will stock unobtanium parts just for future use. If you buy new, and don’t keep the amp long enough, you have paid extra for something you haven’t used. If you buy used, you need to make sure it is the correct region since they will only service it from the region it came from.
3) as much as the E-270 “did poorly”, it is also the highest performing Class AB integrated amp tested here. The Marantz PM-11s2 should actually be better than the E-270 but the PM-11s2 likely has unobtainable spare parts at this time.

4) Yamaha has a clear upgrade pathway if you like the ergonomics and sound. The new R-N2000A might be a good option.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Hi, I am also interested in getting a Yamaha as 1200. How is the build quality? Does top panel flex when you push it?

You can not push in the top panel.

The top part, which you can't see here, is more like a machined plate, not a folded sheet, as you would expect in devices like the A-S701.
All this metal results in it having 25kg of weight, which is a lot, nothing you want to move often. I think that's more than double the weight of a 701, and those aren't "cheaply" made either.
This is what you pay for with these amps.

Here is the build of the A-S801 (the 301, 501, 701 and 803 are the same), stamped metal sheets:

If you want to save money, consider the A-S1100 (basically the same, used in Europe about 1200€) or the A-S1000 (the same, minus automatic standby and VU meters, used in Europe about 600€). Sometimes you can get a used 2200 or 2100 (like the 1100 plus balanced inputs) for the price of a used 1200 or 1100
All the same in terms of audio fidelity, phono preamp quality and output power.

R-N2000A

I don't know, man. I'm sure it's as well made as these ones, no doubt. But the plastic in front of the display will look ****** in 15 years from dusting alone and the streamer functionality will be obsolete.
Ask me why i replaced my NP-S2000 with a combination of a 25€ RPi Zero 2 and a 500€ MiniDSP Flex ;-)

Anyway, here is my "rig":

Sleeping panther means "it's cool, my man, no need to think about upgrades".

Added a phono preamp since to get the record player hooked up to the MiniDSP.

Next upgrade might be a larger 3 way ATC speaker, i'm thinking a pair used SCM40, should be doable for 3500€ or so.

 

[GXAlan]

I don't know, man. I'm sure it's as well made as these ones, no doubt. But the plastic in front of the display will look ****** in 15 years from dusting alone and the streamer functionality will be obsolete.

The appearance is definitely polarizing! I wish they made the secondary display silver instead of black but maybe it looks better in person.

Yes, it does seem to have the same mechanical construction.

 

[yzbythesea]

You can not push in the top panel.

The top part, which you can't see here, is more like a machined plate, not a folded sheet, as you would expect in devices like the A-S701.
All this metal results in it having 25kg of weight, which is a lot, nothing you want to move often. I think that's more than double the weight of a 701, and those aren't "cheaply" made either.
This is what you pay for with these amps.

Perfect! I like big amp, heavy amp and rock solid amp. I am a bit of OCD on the build quality, especially if the top panel flex, that really spook me away
The silver one looks so good. I wish I were able to see one in person, but none of my local stores here carry Yamaha ones. I really like the vu meters and classic design.

BTW, do you know how AS1200 compare with naim xs3/5si or simaudio moon 340ix/240i ? My local stores have some open-box/demo deals on naim and moon models, that brings the cost to AS1200 price.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

You can not push in the top panel.

The top part, which you can't see here, is more like a machined plate, not a folded sheet, as you would expect in devices like the A-S701.
All this metal results in it having 25kg of weight, which is a lot, nothing you want to move often. I think that's more than double the weight of a 701, and those aren't "cheaply" made either.
This is what you pay for with these amps.

Here is the build of the A-S801 (the 301, 501, 701 and 803 are the same), stamped metal sheets:
View attachment 255218

If you want to save money, consider the A-S1100 (basically the same, used in Europe about 1200€) or the A-S1000 (the same, minus automatic standby and VU meters, used in Europe about 600€). Sometimes you can get a used 2200 or 2100 (like the 1100 plus balanced inputs) for the price of a used 1200 or 1100
All the same in terms of audio fidelity, phono preamp quality and output power.


I don't know, man. I'm sure it's as well made as these ones, no doubt. But the plastic in front of the display will look ****** in 15 years from dusting alone and the streamer functionality will be obsolete.
Ask me why i replaced my NP-S2000 with a combination of a 25€ RPi Zero 2 and a 500€ MiniDSP Flex ;-)

Anyway, here is my "rig":
View attachment 255219

View attachment 255220
Sleeping panther means "it's cool, my man, no need to think about upgrades".

Added a phono preamp since to get the record player hooked up to the MiniDSP.
View attachment 255221

Next upgrade might be a larger 3 way ATC speaker, i'm thinking a pair used SCM40, should be doable for 3500€ or so.

Not quite accurate. The newer ones use mosfets in the output stage and the 1200 has a toroid transformer. Older has EI transformer.
Newer ones also bypasses opamps completely in the signal path. Older ones let the signal through one opamp with neutral positioned tone controls.

If these things are audible may be up to debate.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Perfect! I like big amp, heavy amp and rock solid amp. I am a bit of OCD on the build quality, especially if the top panel flex, that really spook me away
The silver one looks so good. I wish I were able to see one in person, but none of my local stores here carry Yamaha ones. I really like the vu meters and classic design.

BTW, do you know how AS1200 compare with naim xs3/5si or simaudio moon 340ix/240i ? My local stores have some open-box/demo deals on naim and moon models, that brings the cost to AS1200 price.

You might want to look at this thread for some nice pictures.. --> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/inside-yamaha-amps.21894/