Upgrades suggestion/recommendation/Discussions for Noticeable Audio quality improvement.

[FrantzM]

List of systems I went through the years, is long, suffice to say that I came from the world where a $6000 speaker cable did not make me blink... Not a matter of Financial means per se: Among my justification: Rather than buy a new decent sedan for $35,000 ~$50, 000. I'd rather get a good used car for 10~15K and spend the remaining on a "good" subjective-accepted audio component or system... whatever that meant. I would proceed cautiously but ...
I was so into it that, I had at one point a 2-chanel purist system with the de rigeur flat panel bass deficient speaker and a 5-channel AV system based around audiophile-approved processors and multi-channel amps... The notions of measurements or FR where to me, then, abominations, heresies...

Here today, I am enjoying a system that feature an AVR, a DSP, 5 lowly JBL "Pro" monitors and, claiming it to be the best I've had ... ASR thus Science has shown to me that you don't always need to spend a lot, to get very good to superlative results
I do hear the limitations of my JBL. e.g. When things get busy and loud, they unravel, .. Yeah! They are raw at times... The subwoofers do not plumb as low as I would like although I have never felt them wanting, but.. you know , I'd like to measure a good 15 Hz in my environment. Enough to put me on my own Hate list ..

I will definitely add better subwoofers., emphasis on "add" two more subwoofers. perhaps Monoprice THX 10 or 12, HSSU VTF, SVS PB 1000 Pro or Rythmik. I will use @sweetchaos subwoofer comparison tool for the final determination ... The current subwoofers , he Dayton SUB-1500 will be moved to different location in the (small: approximately 3.4 x 5 x 2.8 meters,) room and the miniDSP 2x4 HD and Denon AVR-X3400H remains in the system, too ...

For speakers. I was all set on JBL 708 for LCR and use the current 308 for Surround total cost would be about $6300 for LCR

or do I go toward something that cost less and has had very good, even better Preference Score in reviews:
Revel (can't remember which model, F208?)
or Kef R3, if I manage to get one single for the center cost would be about$3200 half the 708 solution. I like the fact that the Kef has a coaxial driver thus Vertical dispersion is as good as horizontal or ...?

What combination of LCR will not bring the expenditure above $7000 while being noticeably superior to the 308 ..because People! the 308 when relieved from deep bass are seriously good speakers.. Their sound belies their low cost. Not heralded in here but for those who have set them up properly? the 308 are impressive and competitive ..

So... Waiting for your suggestions and recommendations. Room is about 3.4 x 5 x 2.8 meters. WxLxH. Concrete. I prefer active but don't mind good passive. Amplification is the Denon AVR-X3400H presently used as an hybrid Pre to the active and amplifier to the Atmos speakers

Peace

 

[BDWoody]

For speakers. I was all set on JBL 708 for LCR and use the current 308 for Surround total cost would be about $6300 for LCR

All I can add here is how often my 708' s make me smile...

I can't imagine you would regret it. The 308's are truly good (I have a pair I gave to my son), but the 708's leave me feeling like I don't need to start budgeting my next upgrade.

I still look to see if any come up on B-stock sales, but whatever led to that early bunch of returns seem to have been sorted out. That I was able to get them for half price just makes my smile bigger, but even at full price I think it's hard to do much better.

 

[stevenswall]

or Kef R3, if I manage to get one single for the center cost would be about$3200 half the 708 solution. I like the fact that the Kef has a coaxial driver thus Vertical dispersion is as good as horizontal or ...?

What combination of LCR will not bring the expenditure above $7000 while being noticeably superior to the 308 ..because People! the 308 when relieved from deep bass are seriously good speakers.. Their sound belies their low cost. Not heralded in here but for those who have set them up properly? the 308 are impressive and competitive ..

Yes, get something coaxial for a center channel. Most anything else is trash as shown by measurements here. Not sure if the KEF centers match their R3, but you could even get another R3 and put it on its side theoretically.

For something cheaper I'd look at the Kali IN-8 V2 for LCR, and they are coming out with Atmos, mountable IN-5 speakers. Saves a good chunk of money too. Vs the 308's I used to have the Kali's don't hiss as much, they don't have a soft rattle when played loud that I noticed in the 305, and I'm not sure if it's treble compression or what but the 308 at moderately high volumes had "harsher" treble which I haven't noticed with the Kali's.

Listening to the 705 at a shop and comparing it to a Neumann, Focal, the 308, some Adam monitors, etc. I didn't like the JBL 705. Could be the reflections off the studio desk but I have a hard time choosing a non-coaxial speaker since my speakers are sometimes closer to the ceiling or a floor than the wall and I'd rather not worry about it. The 708 might get louder though if you don't mind the loss of vertical dispersion.

Ultimately I think the Kali is your best bet price to performance wise because you'll be able to use the IN-8 as a matching center and JBL doesn't have any such center or coaxial speaker.

After that save your pennies and get a Genelec system and their W371 woofer modules and you're set for life.

 

[f1shb0n3]

For something cheaper I'd look at the Kali IN-8 V2 for LCR
...
After that save your pennies and get a Genelec system and their W371 woofer modules and you're set for life.

I was writing my recommendation while this response popped up and said it well - Kali IN-8 V2 is a budget coaxial champion, measured and reviewed by Erin.
Genelec would be better, but at much higher cost.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Genelecs are just so butt ugly though.......

 

[stevenswall]

Genelecs are just so butt ugly though.......

If aesthetics are your priority I'd recommend a sound bar, Bowers & Wilkins, Devialet, etc. If one suits your fancy. The last one has good sound to boot. I'd put it between Kali and Genelec.

If money is not an issue the Kii Three looks relatively nice, and if you like wood the Dutch & Dutch 8C might be good for you. Or you can disassemble a Genelec and take it somewhere to get powder coated however you'd like.

 

[FeddyLost]

Waiting for your suggestions and recommendations

Looks like first you need some decision for yourself - what is your budget, SPL and priorities.
Then, you can look for system that will solve equation within your constraints.
Personally I'd invest into professional room treatment (you said concrete) and then maybe go full digital AES with monitors that I can afford according to required SPL and acceptable distortion.
708P with their distortion issues at high levels are not the perfect solution for something but nearfield control, also they will be troublesome at central channel as any vertical array. And port resonanse also.

 

[somebodyelse]

Not sure if the KEF centers match their R3, but you could even get another R3 and put it on its side theoretically.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_r2c/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_q650c_center/

 

[FrantzM]

Room not the issue, it seems to be reasonably well treated and sound good. The subs (they won't go below 30 Hz with any headroom and the speakers, the 308 can, and do sound raw at times, on complex passages at moderate high (>85 dB at the M.L.P.) I want to seriously improve on these and be done for a while, 2,3 years..
I wasn't aware of the 708 distortion being noticeable. That of the 308, is.

I have been enjoying my present system for almost 3 years. I'd like a system that I would enjoy for the same length of time but that is clearly superior, without going all the way. I try not to throw money at problems., thus the cautious approach.

Peace,

 

[FeddyLost]

Room not the issue, it seems to be reasonably well treated and sound good

Absence of obvious flaws does not mean there's no place for improvement.
To be sure, i'd try to visit some really good studio and check your experience. Maybe it will be next level of performance or almost the same that you own now.

>85 dB at the M.L.P.

It's better to know for sure required SPL at 1m that have to be played clean.

708 distortion being noticeable

I don't know if it will be noticeable in your scenario, but for big treated room this percentage in the region of maximum ear sensitivity is not the best "speaker character".
For the "next level" it might be not good enough.

I would enjoy for the same length of time but that is clearly superior, without going all the way.

You are going into territory of diminishing returns. Even direct comparison between "good" and "also good" can be troublesome ...

 

[DDF]

Room not the issue, it seems to be reasonably well treated and sound good. The subs (they won't go below 30 Hz with any headroom and the speakers, the 308 can, and do sound raw at times, on complex passages at moderate high (>85 dB at the M.L.P.) I want to seriously improve on these and be done for a while, 2,3 years..
I wasn't aware of the 708 distortion being noticeable. That of the 308, is.

I have been enjoying my present system for almost 3 years. I'd like a system that I would enjoy for the same length of time but that is clearly superior, without going all the way. I try not to throw money at problems., thus the cautious approach.

Peace,

At the risk of treading old ground, have you tried setting the AVR to "small" for the 708s, to roll off the bass? That might clean up the dynamics, but you'd need to retweak the subs/dsp of course.

 

[Fahzz]

Genelecs are just so butt ugly though.......

Am I the only one that sees Space Invaders when I look at those things?

 

[FrantzM]

At the risk of treading old ground, have you tried setting the AVR to "small" for the 708s, to roll off the bass? That might clean up the dynamics, but you'd need to retweak the subs/dsp of course.

I don't have the 708.. yet...
Because of the dearth of Audio dealers in my Home country, I don't have the luxury to audition. COVID-19 has made sure of not being able to travel as I'd like to. Thus I have to rely on hard, cold numbers to make decisions. Frequenting this site has made me frugal: Don't throw money at things. Take your time for judicious purchases.
I rarely listen above 95 dB peak.
I like my bass to go down as low as I can hear or not ... So down to 20 Hz "flat", is the base of discussion for bass performance. i want it clean, powerful low and linear.
I like the rest of the audio spectrum too.
Here is my room

[ATTACH type="full"]186937[/ATTACH]

The questions are manifold, but in essence:
Would Kef R3 in my room in LCR work as well as the 708? Likely would replace the JBL 305 with Q350 for surround and Atmos if I were to go that route. Spinorama-wise the R3 scores better than the 708, then again, so does the 308.. Yet.. From all reports, the 708 is , in spite of lower Spinorama, in a higher stratum , performance-wise.
Wouldn't the Kali be a sideway upgrade..?

Open to suggestions. Will purchase a powerful subwoofer able to go below 20 Hz , soon. Monoprice THX is in the lead....

Thanks in advance

Peace.

 

[f1shb0n3]

Would Kef R3 in my room in LCR work as well as the 708? Likely would replace the JBL 305 with Q350 for surround and Atmos if I were to go that route. Spinorama-wise the R3 scores better than the 708, then again, so does the 308.. Yet.. From all reports, the 708 is , in spite of lower Spinorama, in a higher stratum , performance-wise.
Wouldn't the Kali be a sideway upgrade..?

My guess would be that any of these would work great for your HT.
Things to consider in picking between JBL 708P, KEF R3 and Kali IN-8 (besides the active vs passive) is the horizontal and vertical radiation pattern - KEF R3 is fairly narrow horizontally for example, while the rest are wider. Narrow, but consistent radiation of R3 could help reduce the effect of the room and need less room treatment, but on another hand the sound stage would be more narrow too.

 

[FrantzM]

Update:

Upon reading.. Not that enthused about the Kali IN-8.. Sideways move vs the LSR-308, IME.
The R3 is compelling and looks good (yeah , that counts too) and a pair ($2200), is the price of one 708p ($2000 as of this writing).. The R3 solution is 50% that of the 708.. That is a big swing
I may have to audition both , somewhere..
Seriously asking the question..
Anyone around the Miami or Orlando, metropolitan areas with R3 or 708p properly subwoofered ? 100 miles radius? PM me, we'll discuss...

Peace.

P.S. Room is a man-cave. I can treat to my heart extent.... within self-imposed financial and aesthetical limits. Truth to be told, I am not a big believer in Room Treatments, especially in the bass. Limiting first reflections, floor and ceiling reflections... Creating a good RT60 via drapes, rugs, furniture and furnishing is more to my liking. I am not adverse to put some panels here and there on the walls... I believe however that good speakers are the fundamental. Electronics are a solved problem, however much the engineer in me would loooove a system with 120 dB of SINAD, I have now established 80dB, as my SINAD threshold. Anything that provides at least that and we , now have at our disposal some AVRs with superior if hard to work with, DRC and yes, with that SINAD >80dB.

 

[FeddyLost]

The R3 solution is 50% that of the 708.. That is a big swing

I think, for correct comparison, one should add proper amplification.
R3s are current hungry even if you cut them at 80-100 Hz and I'm not sure that you'll be happy with existing AVR at high SPLs.

 

[FrantzM]

I think, for correct comparison, one should add proper amplification.
R3s are current hungry even if you cut them at 80-100 Hz and I'm not sure that you'll be happy with existing AVR at high SPLs.

Point well taken...
How hungry? I have , laying around a 5-channel Rotel Amp at 105 Watts/ch... And the X-3400 is supposedly 105W/channel.

 

[FeddyLost]

How hungry?

Check out their review. They have impedance below 3 Ohm somewhere, that's not an easy task for AVR or Rotel.
And check this review

Kef R3 Bookshelf Speaker Review

Kef R3 Bookshelf Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Their EPDR is below 4 Ohm with almost all frequencies below 1,5K. It's serious.

 

[caught gesture]

Truth to be told, I am not a big believer in Room Treatments, especially in the bass.

Can I ask why you have come to this conclusion?

 

[FrantzM]

Can I ask why you have come to this conclusion?

In the bas we are dealing with very long wavelengths. A 60 Hz tone has a wavelength of 5 meters ... The size of to absorb the bass in a broadband fashion under 100 Hz is no longer manageable, especially in such a small room. Most of the contraptions that claim to improve the bass work in the mid to upper bass >100 to 500 Hz and such. The remedy for low bass is multiple subwoofers and EQ. It is possible to get good results with just one subwoofer. The best results are consistently achieved with more than one sub . I prefer several less expensive subwoofers. DSP/EQ is mandatory in the low bass. You can't have smooth and plentiful low bass without it.

General room treatments is not as simple as we would like to be. Absorption of first reflections is what I aim for. The rest is poorly understood by many, yours very truly,included. I was shocked how my room sounded to me once I took care of the walls , ceiling and floor first reflections. Simple stuff:
Thick rug on the floor
Some kind of Acoustic Panels from Amazon on the ceiling and walls.

Sound Corner echo buster, again from Amazon.

I will have to measure but I am pleased so far...

Peace