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Upgrade: What speaker does 100-105db well yet still delicate at lower levels?

@Pieter1267 how good are you with DSP processing (EQ-ing) and do you have any? Every enclosure has it's advantages and disadvantages. The purpose of the port is to reinforce or introduce what woofer can't do. Unfortunately all home speakers ports tunings are done in the mater that port's cuff out a lot under what woofer actually can. Only some very good PA subs are done in the right way that the port supports lower limit of what woofer does pushing it's actual response not a cuff in front. They are loudest but port must have enough space to maintain flow without obstacles and they do lose function (flow) at certain SPL (and regain it going higher or lower). Closed enclosure requires big in volume box in order to have more extension but it's still usually smaller than ported one. Only the driver does the work and compression of the box help's a little bit. They roll out gradually in lower slope (dB/octave). Not so loud and a bit more of control and of course less extension on the bottom. Open buffle is well open and uses actual room as a box. Behaves much like closed buffle but goes a little louder but introduces it's own fair share of problems like lack of separation in combination with bad back to front refractions timings.
All of this doesn't matter much. You will use ported mains and they won't have same slope as closed box ones even if you block the port's they will get somewhere in between. But you don't need and want to kill it anyway and obstructing (plugging) the ports help there (and so does DSP in much more ways). When you do it high enough where woofer does it easy on it's own you lower the pressure on it and with it you gain lower THD on same SPL or a bit higher max SPL without distorting bad. All do it's just couple of dB sometimes even couple is not so little (±12 dB is psy 2x and ½). You let subs play what you cut to what they can. Amount of sub's they size do you want it to get physical or not (neighbours certainly don't) is discussable and so is the low - sub bass tail but what isn't is a 105 Hz knee (self filter) for psy equal loudness compensation which is important so that you don't have to turn the hause down or go deff (or blind) and cetera wanting to have that full range feeling pushing it very loud. As it pushes the bass up significantly so you may have it even on the level of common talk for the rest. It also boosts highs a bit but only on low volume. It won't be great on really low volumes but on normal ones (mid 70's programme normalised) it work's pretty good. As you go over 88~90 dB programme correction for equal loudness actually scales another way around (reducing bass).
If you like Revel's and have a "good bargain" on them go for it. Linton's will do it just fine on the other hand. Then we can talk 4 ways wide with super tweeters as bright as a sun to widen and reinforce small ones in all home speakers.
Im just starting out really. I had a UMIk1 for 2 years but only dug into REW last month again since I got the MiniDSP DDRC24. I gotta say I dont have the patience to go through endless measurements. But the SVS I tamed very well. Treating the room alone made such a big difference in measurements. I actually had little to correct after that.

And with that I also hope to get a home test. I called some dealers and some are great, willing to give me a 1 or 2 week testrun in my room, with my amps. But then Im also bound with dealer prices. The Revels new are just way out of my league and given the huge slashing of prices, and the BIG differences between USA and EU prices I feel there is too much sticking in between.

Wharfedale is fair though, and I can order directly. They have a 14 day try period you can use to make up your mind. But Im in Poland in 2 weeks and I know a nice used Revel F208 close to the border in Chech republic. Who knows. I havent auditioned the F208 yet and they arent on offer at the dealers anymore. Spending 3k on speakers you never heard is kind of unwise. We will see. Im in no hurry.
 
@Pieter1267 take your time and maybe a better deal appears over the holidays. Still didn't get where are you from exactly. To me best deal are Linton's without stands on sub's (with their own stand's, packs and isolation between) and it saves space but not everyone is into looks of something like that. I ain't all that much into looks obviously.
Well if you know basics regarding PEQ it's fine with me, you won't need much else anyway if the acoustic treatment is so good as you say. Still three PEQ's on SVS definitely won't cut it and 10 per bank on Mini will. Main thing is room correction, crossover proper setup and bass correction and management. Adjusting equal loudness trough filter by hand ain't but it's not hard either and you can make couple presets to actual SPL (measured with UMIC with cal file in REW) you do listening at usually. I use JRiver for that among other things.
 
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I found these at a flea market, MB Quart 390s. 50 euro. After some fiddling with the PEQ I got this vs the Neats in REW

NeatSx2vsQuart390.jpg


They are so much louder! They are so loud that I dont think I need something that can blow over this. It is quite a sharp tweeter. I have to see if I can get used to it. But no more clipping. I can push the Quad a lot further. MB Quart is old, but I read that the drivers are absolute ace quality.
 

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Well they use 10" woofers and are closed enclosure. There were three different versions (with bunch of different tweets) third version whose most different with different woofer and crossover only you got first or second version judging by crossover (upper one) which is bad (tho should still be little higher). At least you can see how something similar looking would fit in.
 
Well they use 10" woofers and are closed enclosure. There were three different versions (with bunch of different tweets) third version whose most different with different woofer and crossover only you got first or second version judging by crossover (upper one) which is bad (tho should still be little higher). At least you can see how something similar looking would fit in.
Indeed. (Its a version 2 im sure of that.) I think I'm gonna try and sell the Neats. With a bit of luck I can still get €1500 for it. That would make a purchase of those Super Lintons even if its just for the 2 week trial very easy. But my oh my those 10" are something else. My ears are still ringing. Im going to use earplugs from now on if i test at high SPL.

" The amplifier clipped before the acoustic-output waveform from the speaker was visibly or audibly distorted. The power level at clipping ranged from 1,100 watts at 10,000 Hz to 1,455 watts at 100 Hz. The fact that even such a huge input did not drive the woofer to the limits of its suspension travel testifies to the high quality of its design and construction."

https://www.hifi-classic.net/review/mb-quart-390-422.html

For 50 euro I maybe should als in the DIY section if its worth trying a different tweeter. At least I also confirmed that the Quad 606 output is fine as it is, and the distortion was just the Neat SX2 getting to their limit. For now im gonna see if I can make brackets on better earlevel and make the space more ready for a big bookshelf test area. And more REW testing and learning. See if those MB Quarts like a bit of Whitney Houston. I was not so impressed with classical music. Jazz, however, was very nice. The mid is so much more present. You can hear the strings of the guitar being plucked. A 3 way speaker is richer in pallete. I also needed to up the SVS volume level a lot more for the mix. Plenty to do.
 
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View attachment 412624


I found these at a flea market, MB Quart 390s. 50 euro. After some fiddling with the PEQ I got this vs the Neats in REW

View attachment 412626

They are so much louder! They are so loud that I dont think I need something that can blow over this. It is quite a sharp tweeter. I have to see if I can get used to it. But no more clipping. I can push the Quad a lot further. MB Quart is old, but I read that the drivers are absolute ace quality.
Would You mind to define which colour means which DUT in what measurement postion?
And does the dimple of mids lead to distorsion (coil scratching)?
 
Would You mind to define which colour means which DUT in what measurement postion?
And does the dimple of mids lead to distorsion (coil scratching)?
Apologies.

The Top Blue and Orange lines are the MB Quart 390s. The Brown and Purple lines are the NEAT SX2's Both measured after I did some PEQ corrections. I must admit im not sure if its both NEATS or the same and one of the lines is after a small correction. They are so similar. Its more for the general idea, I dont claim any scientific and equal measuring method or position other than a UMIK1 at 90 deg on ear level at my seating position. Im really a complete novice, certainly compared to seasoned ASC users.

I did some more readings and these MB Quart 390s actually have an amazing status. Im going to play around and perhaps send the tweeter and the crossovers to the original factory, wich still exists. I live in The Netherlands btw, not far from the German factory.
 
Well they can get some PAs.

Dunlavy comes to mind since they're insisting on 105dBC SPL at 1m
And because TS can consider buying used speakers, something like these, IF he has room for such large ones. Sold in Sweden but there must be similar ones for sale in TS country. According to the advertiser high SPL.If there are good bass drivers in the speakers, I don't doubt that for a second because: ;):)

Home built speakers with dual 15 inch bass drivers. Building cost about SEK 25,000 ($2,300), I sell them for SEK 10,000 ($900). They sounds very good. High SPL
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DIY so, well it can now be a bit whatever with the design, lousy or very good.
Mostly meant as a fun example in this thread. Otherwise more reasonable, in terms of size, a pair with double 9 bass drivers should fix the whole thing for TS in a good way:
dalt-oberon-9-floor-standing-loudspeaker-feature.jpg

Screenshot_2024-12-09_222647.jpg

Review, test and measurements:


Used on Hifishark:

 
And because TS can consider buying used speakers, something like these, IF he has room for such large ones. Sold in Sweden but there must be similar ones for sale in TS country. According to the advertiser high SPL.If there are good bass drivers in the speakers, I don't doubt that for a second because: ;):)

Home built speakers with dual 15 inch bass drivers. Building cost about SEK 25,000 ($2,300), I sell them for SEK 10,000 ($900). They sounds very good. High SPL
View attachment 412648

DIY so, well it can now be a bit whatever with the design, lousy or very good.
Mostly meant as a fun example in this thread. Otherwise more reasonable, in terms of size, a pair with double 9 bass drivers should fix the whole thing for TS in a good way:
View attachment 412651
View attachment 412652

Review, test and measurements:


Used on Hifishark:

I dont think I can convince my wife to stay with me if I buy such monsters AND use them. :)
 
I dont think I can convince my wife to stay with me if I buy such monsters AND use them. :)
You mean the DIY ones? Well, quite large. :);) Here's another tip. Measures well and can be played loudly:

I measured the sensitivity to be 90.9dB for 2.83v at 1 meter, which is a bit below HECO’s 93dB sensitivity spec. Even so, 90.9 (let's call it 91 dB) makes the Aurora 1000s a bit above average in sensitivity, and you don’t need a monster amp to get these things loud. A hundred watts should be capable of pushing it to pretty darn loud levels, 110dB at one meter anechoically, and that is quite a bit louder than most people would ever listen to.

$
799/each

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You mean the DIY ones? Well, quite large. :);) Here's another tip. Measures well and can be played loudly:

I measured the sensitivity to be 90.9dB for 2.83v at 1 meter, which is a bit below HECO’s 93dB sensitivity spec. Even so, 90.9 (let's call it 91 dB) makes the Aurora 1000s a bit above average in sensitivity, and you don’t need a monster amp to get these things loud. A hundred watts should be capable of pushing it to pretty darn loud levels, 110dB at one meter anechoically, and that is quite a bit louder than most people would ever listen to.

$
799/each

View attachment 412655


Ive seen some amazing HECO's and these look great too. They will be added to the list. Grazie!
 
Anything by Andrew Jones - generally his designs love power, play loud well, and don't distort horribly. For example, the SP888 plays to 102 with virtually no compression. Unfortunately you are in Europe and I don't think Mofi is all that cheap there compared to some other brands.
 
JBL 4673A THX when star trek III uss grissom gets blown to smithereens 110dBc across the LCR or five screen wide L Lc C Rc R with baby boom , that was pressing against my chest ! yeah that's THX/TAP !
 
@Andysu interesting tweeter loaded horns on those (113 dB efficiency and capable doing it from 500 Hz up). There are and 2x woofers models in that series along with 8 ohms variants active/passive and with/without crossover. Well THX cinema gear whose made to handle DR 24 on not so close distances (specification/certification).
 
..but Lintons are Rear Ported. I want speakers about 30cm from the wall. That will never work.

some reviews

""
I watched both comparison reviews. Terry's (Pursuit Perfect System) was far more insightful with amp pairings and a head to head between the Supers and the Linton/Mission 770. With Randy (Cheap Guy), once you cut out all the schtick, there's really only about 5 minutes of meaningful content. Terry's was chock full, beginning to end.

To paraphrase Terry, the Super's correct the flaws and coloration of the Linton. Yet it's those very "flaws" that make the Linton special with that all day easeful experience. He says the Supers are more lively, faster, more dynamic with greater clarity and a more forward presentation. Even more so than the Mission 770's. He said that the Supers are the technically better speaker, but it seems he enjoys the Linton as much or more for all day listening. The Super's liveliness can be tamed with various amp pairings, but its core character remains distinctly different than the Linton.

It's just a matter of what sort of sound one seeks. The Supers seem to step in to more directly compete with the other $2500 to $3000 range type of sound on the market, the KLH, Klipsch, etc. While the original Linton remains the king of easeful, delightfully colored old school speakers. It seems to me, based upon all of these reviews, that the Supers are a markedly different speaker made for a different sort of listener. Which makes sense for Wharfedale, why compete against their own all time best seller??

My interest in the Supers has now diminished to a flicker. I'm not a lively speaker enthusiast. I prefer old school film to high res digital.

""
'Colored' means noticable (hearable) bumps and dips in their frequency response (let alone resonances). I don't know how many times I have to say this but that is not how the Lintons sound. They are a neutral, monitor kind of speaker. That's why they don't favore any genre of music and why you can endlessly listen to them without any fatigue. The Supers, however, have a bump in the upper midrange/lower treble and in the upper treble. Having said that, I don't believe 30 hours of playing time is enough to run them in. For me the weirdest thing of all the reviews so far is the need for Loudness. Loudness boosts the 100 Hz and 10.000 Hz regions. Unless your source is an very old turntable, I don't understand how that can sound better. Colored and V-shaped, yes, but better? Maybe there is something wrong with cheapaudioman's hearing? Maybe he has been listening to hard rock too much ... ""

""
My issue with the Linton 85th's wasn't their colouration, it was their lack of transparency and air. And my sense is that it is precisely that combination of colouration and veiling that makes everything played through them sound so dang lovable. They never offend. The price you pay for never having to tolerate a rough edge or for giving lousy recordings a passing grade is a degree of homogenization. We all want our preferred purchase to be good at all things but there's always a trade off to be made.

Doesn't matter if our respective trade offs are different. Beauty - after all - is in the eye of the beholder. ""

""
I owned the Lintons for a trial period of 60 days before returning them. It’s a good speaker but i did have some issues with
the treble region on some material. Luckily, i found my Linton upgrade when i purchased the Missions and I don’t have Terry’s
reservation as to which speaker i enjoy more- It’s very clear to me…other’s might prefer the Super’s lively signature. ""

""Exactly. And contrary to what most people think, it's the exaggerations of colored speakers/headphones that let you hear details and elements in music that you've never heard before. In their first months, my Lintons exaggerated the midrange between 1500-2500 Hz, which made me hear every difference in mastering between the 4 or 5 Animal releases. Now that they are fully run in, those differences are mostly gone. Not too long ago, I bough a cheap pair of headphones many folks were talking about. Besides their ridiculously huge bump in the bass, they also have a bump higher up the frequency spectrum (don't remember where), and when I listened to Donald Fagen's album The Nightfly, I could hear a loud synth playing along on a track I know very well but never noticed before. The bump in the upper treble of the Super Lintons keeps on worrying me. The Denton 85 has a similar treble bump which makes ride cymbals patterns in Jazz extra sparkling and sheeny but also very fatiguing and unbalanced. ""

""
So, i would definitely audition before swapping for the Super Linton. I can say this…i owned the Linton and swapped for the Mission
770s. To me the Missions 770s are the natural upgrade to the Lintons. I feel like they improved on every area and still deliver
that relaxed, yet dynamic sound. I prefer them to the SHL5+s as they are beautiful with voices, their tonality is exceptional and
they are more dynamic, can play really loud if i want (i never do). Additionally their dynamic drive makes them more convincing and
involving at low volume levels which i truly value.

I havent heard the Super Lintons, but would like to….from the reviews, it has some very appealing characteristics. However, i think
the Missions have a closer sound signature to your Harbeths than do the Supers, a bit less in your face. You should try and audition both
since you already have a great pair of speakers.
""

Etcetera. Plenty of things that do not convince me. The Lintons, bot the normal and Super, are off the table for me.
Just a quick comment... when quoting things, please give the source, in case of copyright issues.

If I have this right via Google, some of these quotes come from the Steve Hoffman forums?
 
@Andysu interesting tweeter loaded horns on those (113 dB efficiency and capable doing it from 500 Hz up). There are and 2x woofers models in that series along with 8 ohms variants active/passive and with/without crossover. Well THX cinema gear whose made to handle DR 24 on not so close distances (specification/certification).
actually 300Hz LR24db on LF HF its a THX flashback here star trek III THX/TAP
 
Just a quick comment... when quoting things, please give the source, in case of copyright issues.

If I have this right via Google, some of these quotes come from the Steve Hoffman forums?
Apologies. Indeed these are from a discussion on the Steve Hoffman forums.
 
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