Upgrade: What speaker does 100-105db well yet still delicate at lower levels?

[Pieter1267]

Hi

Since a few months im considering an upgrade to my current speaker system, Neat Acoustic sx2.

After many weeks of talking, posting, researching ive narrowed down some requirements for my upgrade se

- capable of 105db at 1 meter without problems
- passive. Non debatable
- bookshelf of floorstanding
- has to give the same low level volume excellence the Neats give
- though their aluminium tweeters are a bit harsh at times (yet perfect for bad masterings)
- but i definitly want speakers with some more oomph in the 80hz and up region (i will marry any new pair with svs 1000 pro sub), so handling over 100 watt a must.
- preferably sealed or front ported. They will be placed 30cm from a wall
- budget is about $1500-2000. Preferable used. Looks not that important but KEF looks the cheapest, un speaker like ive ever seen (and im 54 and seen hundreds of types). Please note i live in Europe where speakers are sold about 30-50% more than in the good old US of A.

Sofar i went through a lot of suggestions.


off the table:

Dynaudio 40 is a no.
Sonus faber concerto g2 is a no
The revel f206 was a strong contender but as an upgrade to the Neats i dont think its worth the smallish difference on paper. They have bigger drivers and perform around 102db but that seems to be their limit. I want speakers with a lot of headroom.
Amphion one18 dropped for reliability issues.
Neat has horrible service (non existent in the netherlands) so byebye.
No kef.
No Harbeth (way too expensive for what they offer).
No Ascend Acoustics. They perform gold medals all round on spinorama but i read several owners reviews that at volume they are not the best.

Currently still on the table

Atc scm19. The 11 will make me regret not going for the 19 several owners said. Used prices are way above value though (12 year old model), and somehow sellers rather keep them around €1900 for months on hifishark instead of selling now for a more reasonable 1600. But as far as oomph requirement goes, the perfect candidate.

Revel f208, 226be. The former looks to be able to do it, hit all the marks and for decent price. The latter is too expensive*.

Ascilab a6b. But the quoted $2900 a pair might push it way above my budgetlimit. After customs would be €3500. With a dealer probably over €4000. Thats a definite no. There are no user reviews on volume yet. And there could be delays for another 12 months delivery. Who knows.

Hearing good things about Spendor. What model would fit the budget?

Totem signature model one. Kind of expensive. Very coloured to some users. I havent tested them myself yet.

The Revels doing great in reviews but the slashing of performa3 salesprices of 45% and more makes you wonder how much of that new 226be salesprice of €9000 was material, or the name sucking your wallet dry? I rarely met such unkind dealers than the guys i talked to 3 weeks ago.

Anything else i should consider?

 

[GXAlan]

105 dB at 1m? Or what listening distance?

 

[kemmler3D]

Hi

Since a few months im considering an upgrade to my current speaker system, Neat Acoustic sx2.

After many weeks of talking, posting, researching ive narrowed down some requirements for my upgrade set.

- passive. Non debatable
- bookshelf of floorstanding
- has to give the same low level excellence the Neats give
- though their aluminium tweeters are a bit harsh at times ((yet perfect for bad masterings)
- but i deffinitly want speakers with some more oomph in the 80hz and up region (i will marry any new pair with svs 1000 pro sub), so handling over 100 watt a must.
- preferably sealed or front ported. They will be placed 30cm from a wall
- budget is about $1500-2000. please note i live in Europe where speakers are sold about 30-50% more tjan in the usa.

Sofar i went through a lot of suggestions.


off the table:

Dynaudio 40 is a no.
Sonus faber concerto g2 is a no
The revelf206 was a strong contender but as an upgrade to the Neats i dont think its worth the smallish difference on paper. They have bigger drivers and perform around 100db but that seems to be their limit. Amphion one18 dropped for reliability issues. Neat has horrible service (non existent in the netherlands) so byebye.
No kef.
No Harbeth (way too expensive for what they offer).
Ascend Acoustics. They perform gold medals all round on spinorama but i read several owners reviews that at volume they ate not the best.

Currently still on the table

Atc scm19. The 11 will make me regret not going for the 19 several owners said. Used prices are way above value though (12 year old model), and somehow sellers rather keep them around €1900 for months on hifishark instead of selling now for a more reasonable 1600. But as far as oomph requirement goes, the perfect candidate.

Revel f208, 226be. The former looks to be able to do it and for decent price. The latter is too expensive*.

Ascilab a6b. But the quoted $2900 a pair might push it way above my budgetlimit. After customs would be €3500. With a dealer probably over €4000. Thats a deffinite no.

Hearing good things about Spendor. What model would fit the budget?

The Revels doing great in reviews but the slashing of performa3 salesprices of 45% and more makes you wonder how much of that new 226be salesprice of €9000 was material, or the name sucking your wallet dry? I rarely met such unkind dealers than the guys i talked to 3 weeks ago.

Anything else i should consider?

To me the A6B is the most interesting because it includes the Purifi driver. I think that will not only go pretty far in terms of SPL because of the high excursion, they are measured as having really low distortion, so they should deliver all the nuance you're hoping for. In one review I read, they turned the driver all the way up until it started bottoming out and hitting stuff, they said the distortion was so low it didn't even sound like it was too loud...

It's a stretch budget-wise, but Purifi is really at the forefront right now, so if there's such a thing as "future-proof" speakers I think these are them.

The ATCs are sort of the opposite approach, I see their stuff as having a "classic" if not technologically modern sound. But by the same token it seems like they will have fans forever, so you can always sell them later.

 

[Pieter1267]

105 dB at 1m? Or what listening distance?

105 at 1 meter works for me. Listening distance is 2 meters.

 

[Pieter1267]

To me the A6B is the most interesting because it includes the Purifi driver. I think that will not only go pretty far in terms of SPL because of the high excursion, they are measured as having really low distortion, so they should deliver all the nuance you're hoping for. In one review I read, they turned the driver all the way up until it started bottoming out and hitting stuff, they said the distortion was so low it didn't even sound like it was too loud...

It's a stretch budget-wise, but Purifi is really at the forefront right now, so if there's such a thing as "future-proof" speakers I think these are them.

The ATCs are sort of the opposite approach, I see their stuff as having a "classic" if not technologically modern sound. But by the same token it seems like they will have fans forever, so you can always sell them later.

Re:ATC im not sure about 'always sell them later'. I see offerings (for the 19)hover around for months. Sellers like to cling to the name, but the home hifi isnt that popular. 1900 euros (2200 dollars) is a lot of money for 12 year old design that im not willing to pay. I think the scm11's are sold for more realistic prices. ATC as home hifi is maybe too much of a niche. Or at least the scm's as entry level. They go way up in price at levels im not interested to budget speakers for.

I think i rather extend the budget a little and wait for the a6b. *If they remain around $2900 retail. Even if i have 3 million, i will not spend 4k on any speaker, period. Then it remains to be seen whether those a6b's like a good workout around 100db. And of coyrse, when? It could well be another year.

So, im wondering if people have other suggestions.

 

[The Dunster]

Revel f208 is fabulous if you can get it within your budget. (They are $10k here in Australia).

 

[Koeitje]

ATC isn't very good (and it terms of design philosophy the exact opposite of the other two brands you are considering), so that's not an option. the Ascilab has good drivers but they are still small, so that brings us to the F208. I have M106's and while I think the speaker doesn't look that great, it sounds absolutely fantastic. It has a great tweeter and the only thing I'd say it lacks is deep bass and SPL output....which the F208 would fix with ease.

 

[Pieter1267]

Revel f208 is fabulous if you can get it within your budget. (They are $10k here in Australia).

ATC isn't very good (and it terms of design philosophy the exact opposite of the other two brands you are considering), so that's not an option. the Ascilab has good drivers but they are still small, so that brings us to the F208. I have M106's and while I think the speaker doesn't look that great, it sounds absolutely fantastic. It has a great tweeter and the only thing I'd say it lacks is deep bass and SPL output....which the F208 would fix with ease.

I just found out the F208 weighs 36kg each... My, bass wont be a big problem!

But an offering in Bucarest (the odd 2200km from where I am) or South Africa. Oh, and in Chech republic.

 

[ZolaIII]

Uh-huh... Erin does compression tests up to 102 dB so that's where you need to look at. Wharfedale Linton's passed it with flying results and it's in the budget (1000€ with stand's in EU) and will leave you enough money to add two 10~12" subs (for eventually little more money). Tho they are rare potted but not very problematic (two port's). I don't know what you need 105 dB SPL (99~100 at 2m) but keep in mind none of home - HiFi speakers is maid for that with small not great cooled tweeters. So if you want more it will be either PA or DIY.
Edit; if you could find Linton's without stands adding another SVS SB 1000 Pro and putting them on sub's (with isolation in between) and making 2.2 setup of it with multichannel (at least 4) something (card, interface, standalone DSP...) high crossover (120 Hz) and implementing equal loudness compensation (ISO 226) trough self filter or automatically (to a SPL lv) you can have them playing nice even on low 60's (normal come talk lv) and only then. So you can actually use and smaller speakers and they don't have to be there way one's with such high crossover which is so high for a transition limiting the 105 Hz knew for equal loudness compensation bass boost in the first place. That's why the two chenels bass is used in such (over 60 Hz it's not unified wave so it's directional and paning effects can become bearable and besides you get +6 dB under 60 Hz where you need them the most).

 

[Pieter1267]

Uh-huh... Erin does compression tests up to 102 dB so that's where you need to look at. Wharfedale Linton's passed it with flying results and it's in the budget (1000€ with stand's in EU) and will leave you enough money to add two 10~12" subs (for eventually little more money). Tho they are rare potted but not very problematic (two port's). I don't know what you need 105 dB SPL (99~100 at 2m) but keep in mind none of home - HiFi speakers is maid for that with small not great cooled tweeters. So if you want more it will be either PA or DIY.

The Lintons crossed my mind but though good they are not great. Would feel a sideways or less grade on the Neat Acoustics. Also: not a fan of buying new and spend 40% on the dealer pocket. The F208 new around $6000-10000. They are used in reach of my budget. They look a phenomenal upgrade.

 

[Rednaxela]

How about something like this?

 

[DSJR]

Neats used to be designed by ear alone I recall and the ones I've heard usually have a bass unit and a tweeter with a 'gap' in between. One small model they do with amt tweeter? had a squidgy bass and mid with 'tinsel' on top, so not a happy driver marriage for me anyway.

Spendors are more expensive than Harbeth for various reasons (not saying more) but the Radial main drivers the latter brand uses do seem extremely good in terms of linearity and cone break-up, according the very sparse response plots sometimes posted on the HUG. The forthcoming actives will be interesting to see how they compare with decent pro models.

ATCs really do get a very bad rap here, yet their better models sound delightful on acoustic and orchestral music, as well as caning it out on rock and jazz. The 11 is judged better than the 19 (and therefore the 20) for domestic use and my limited experience with the 11 and having owned passive and active 20s confirms this. Having said that, a sector of the domestic fraternity in the UK does seem to like an over-exposed upper mid balance and to hell with the measurements!!!.

Many 8" main driver (radiating area) models should do 106dB with a decent amp driving them I'm sure, but smaller drivers will be working hard, especially below 100hz and distortion may be horrendous - you really can't beat a BIG speaker for effortlessness I still feel after all these years.

What exactly is *wrong* with the Linton, let alone the Super Linton which apparently goes louder with less distortion? There's something about a two cubic-foot box and suitable main driver, at least for UK/EU room sizes.

 

[Sokel]

Let's define things first.
100-105dB SPL what? (A) weighted?(C) weighted?Measured with what?And is that average,max or peaks?

There are tremendous differences depending the above.

You want loud?Want impact (the instantaneous chest hits,not the sub rumble) ?

 

[Pieter1267]

Neats used to be designed by ear alone I recall and the ones I've heard usually have a bass unit and a tweeter with a 'gap' in between. One small model they do with amt tweeter? had a squidgy bass and mid with 'tinsel' on top, so not a happy driver marriage for me anyway.

Spendors are more expensive than Harbeth for various reasons (not saying more) but the Radial main drivers the latter brand uses do seem extremely good in terms of linearity and cone break-up, according the very sparse response plots sometimes posted on the HUG. The forthcoming actives will be interesting to see how they compare with decent pro models.

ATCs really do get a very bad rap here, yet their better models sound delightful on acoustic and orchestral music, as well as caning it out on rock and jazz. The 11 is judged better than the 19 (and therefore the 20) for domestic use and my limited experience with the 11 and having owned passive and active 20s confirms this. Having said that, a sector of the domestic fraternity in the UK does seem to like an over-exposed upper mid balance and to hell with the measurements!!!.

Many 8" main driver (radiating area) models should do 106dB with a decent amp driving them I'm sure, but smaller drivers will be working hard, especially below 100hz and distortion may be horrendous - you really can't beat a BIG speaker for effortlessness I still feel after all these years.

What exactly is *wrong* with the Linton, let alone the Super Linton which apparently goes louder with less distortion? There's something about a two cubic-foot box and suitable main driver, at least for UK/EU room sizes.

Thanks for the nice reply.

The Lintons had a nice offer not so long ago, but i read many, many reviews even by the owners they are sounding like 800 dollar speakers. Not 2000 dollar speakers. Good but not outstanding and certainly not loud. supers also didnt cause a rush. I dont know. They were investigated, but off the table.

Just like or near my Neat sx2 then.

 

[Koeitje]

Thanks for the nice reply.

The Lintons had a nice offer not so long ago, but i read many, many reviews even by the owners they are sounding like 800 dollar speakers. Not 2000 dollar speakers. Good but not outstanding and certainly not loud. supers also didnt cause a rush. I dont know. They were investigated, but off the table.

Just like or near my Neat sx2 then.

Are those reviews of the Linton Super? Because that has huge improvements in terms of compression.

 

[Pieter1267]

Let's define things first.
100-105dB SPL what? (A) weighted?(C) weighted?Measured with what?And is that average,max or peaks?

There are tremendous differences depending the above.

You want loud?Want impact (the instantaneous chest hits,not the sub rumble) ?

I want to play some music with big basguitar, drums, huge ensembles, maybe a part of a DJ set in a louder than loud setting for about 15 minutes per week, as the doctor ordered.

@Rednaxela Looks a bit intimidating. What brand and model is that? A bit too big for me.

@Koeitje Yup, I registered the improved Super Linton. Still didnt convince me. No reviews on louder playing, unlike ATC. And if were slamming ATC for being conventional, the Lintons bring me back to the 70s. Visually not appealing. (that said, the drivers do look very nice).Its not the main thing but still. For the upgrade budget I want at least as nice looking as the Neats. EDIT: I did some more reading on the Lintons. The conclusion is they cannot be placed too close to a wall. Wich is what I want. Also, some question the huge price hike of the Super Linton over the normal one when in some measurements, they dont look that much different.

Atm the Revel F208 is ahead of the pack. Going to do some measurements to see if they fit. Big things too.

 

[Sokel]

Unlike other opinions here,the one thing you must know is that the electric guitar amps (the ones with the speaker we use) rarely go lower than 30Hz,in fact the pro drivers used to them are all hi-passed somewhere there.

The slam and loudness you're looking for is higher.Subs help but without a dedicated big-ish woofer (so a 3-way) and a big-ish cabinet whatever you'll get will suffer at such levels.Yes.even the purifi,is an amazing driver but laws of physics are there for it too (except we talk about the 10" one but by the defined budget that's impossible.

ATC's are nice and can endure loud but as anything else to a point,they can't do miracles.
For such loudness choose by eye,the biggest you can find.Smaller ones will maybe be nicer at lower volume but any advantage they may have will disappear as things go serious.

 

[ZolaIII]

I want to play some music with big basguitar, drums, maybe a part of a DJ set in a louder than loud setting for about 15 minutes per week, as the doctor ordered.

Linton's are fine and it's better to spend that money on other aspects which even very big speakers can't address especially towards your own space (acoustic treatment and DSPing). I can't guarantee you any speakers will sound good on programme over 88~90 dB in almost any closed space. That's for large hals and even so with a lot of effort (that's why home line's aren't built for it in the first place). How loud you can get to 2 m is easy enough to calculate. Real peaks (and where they are of course) to DR. For recorded music materials that's low 30's to 180's from deep electronic to pipe organ to mid main bass and split from each other on drivers for a sake of... can you recommend me that practitioner as I think I may need one.

 

[Pieter1267]

Unlike other opinions here,the one thing you must know is that the electric guitar amps (the ones with the speaker we use) rarely go lower than 30Hz,in fact the pro drivers used to them are all hi-passed somewhere there.

The slam and loudness you're looking for is higher.Subs help but without a dedicated big-ish woofer (so a 3-way) and a big-ish cabinet whatever you'll get will suffer at such levels.Yes.even the purifi,is an amazing driver but laws of physics are there for it too (except we talk about the 10" one but by the defined budget that's impossible.

ATC's are nice and can endure loud but as anything else to a point,they can't do miracles.
For such loudness choose by eye,the biggest you can find.Smaller ones will maybe be nicer at lower volume but any advantage they may have will disappear as things go serious.

I hear you. I was thinking about bookshelf, even really good expensive ones with a sub but they will never do what a big floorstander with 8"or bigger driver can do.

 

[Pieter1267]

Linton's are fine and it's better to spend that money on other aspects which even very big speakers can't address especially towards your own space (acoustic treatment and DSPing). I can't guarantee you any speakers will sound good on programme over 88~90 dB in almost any closed space. That's for large hals and even so with a lot of effort (that's why home line's aren't built for it in the first place). How loud you can get to 2 m is easy enough to calculate. Real peaks (and where they are of course) to DR. For recorded music materials that's low 30's to 180's from deep electronic to pipe organ to mid main bass and split from each other on drivers for a sake of... can you recommend me that practitioner as I think I may need one.

..but Lintons are Rear Ported. I want speakers about 30cm from the wall. That will never work.

some reviews

""
I watched both comparison reviews. Terry's (Pursuit Perfect System) was far more insightful with amp pairings and a head to head between the Supers and the Linton/Mission 770. With Randy (Cheap Guy), once you cut out all the schtick, there's really only about 5 minutes of meaningful content. Terry's was chock full, beginning to end.

To paraphrase Terry, the Super's correct the flaws and coloration of the Linton. Yet it's those very "flaws" that make the Linton special with that all day easeful experience. He says the Supers are more lively, faster, more dynamic with greater clarity and a more forward presentation. Even more so than the Mission 770's. He said that the Supers are the technically better speaker, but it seems he enjoys the Linton as much or more for all day listening. The Super's liveliness can be tamed with various amp pairings, but its core character remains distinctly different than the Linton.

It's just a matter of what sort of sound one seeks. The Supers seem to step in to more directly compete with the other $2500 to $3000 range type of sound on the market, the KLH, Klipsch, etc. While the original Linton remains the king of easeful, delightfully colored old school speakers. It seems to me, based upon all of these reviews, that the Supers are a markedly different speaker made for a different sort of listener. Which makes sense for Wharfedale, why compete against their own all time best seller??

My interest in the Supers has now diminished to a flicker. I'm not a lively speaker enthusiast. I prefer old school film to high res digital.

""
'Colored' means noticable (hearable) bumps and dips in their frequency response (let alone resonances). I don't know how many times I have to say this but that is not how the Lintons sound. They are a neutral, monitor kind of speaker. That's why they don't favore any genre of music and why you can endlessly listen to them without any fatigue. The Supers, however, have a bump in the upper midrange/lower treble and in the upper treble. Having said that, I don't believe 30 hours of playing time is enough to run them in. For me the weirdest thing of all the reviews so far is the need for Loudness. Loudness boosts the 100 Hz and 10.000 Hz regions. Unless your source is an very old turntable, I don't understand how that can sound better. Colored and V-shaped, yes, but better? Maybe there is something wrong with cheapaudioman's hearing? Maybe he has been listening to hard rock too much ... ""

""
My issue with the Linton 85th's wasn't their colouration, it was their lack of transparency and air. And my sense is that it is precisely that combination of colouration and veiling that makes everything played through them sound so dang lovable. They never offend. The price you pay for never having to tolerate a rough edge or for giving lousy recordings a passing grade is a degree of homogenization. We all want our preferred purchase to be good at all things but there's always a trade off to be made.

Doesn't matter if our respective trade offs are different. Beauty - after all - is in the eye of the beholder. ""

""
I owned the Lintons for a trial period of 60 days before returning them. It’s a good speaker but i did have some issues with
the treble region on some material. Luckily, i found my Linton upgrade when i purchased the Missions and I don’t have Terry’s
reservation as to which speaker i enjoy more- It’s very clear to me…other’s might prefer the Super’s lively signature. ""

""Exactly. And contrary to what most people think, it's the exaggerations of colored speakers/headphones that let you hear details and elements in music that you've never heard before. In their first months, my Lintons exaggerated the midrange between 1500-2500 Hz, which made me hear every difference in mastering between the 4 or 5 Animal releases. Now that they are fully run in, those differences are mostly gone. Not too long ago, I bough a cheap pair of headphones many folks were talking about. Besides their ridiculously huge bump in the bass, they also have a bump higher up the frequency spectrum (don't remember where), and when I listened to Donald Fagen's album The Nightfly, I could hear a loud synth playing along on a track I know very well but never noticed before. The bump in the upper treble of the Super Lintons keeps on worrying me. The Denton 85 has a similar treble bump which makes ride cymbals patterns in Jazz extra sparkling and sheeny but also very fatiguing and unbalanced. ""

""
So, i would definitely audition before swapping for the Super Linton. I can say this…i owned the Linton and swapped for the Mission
770s. To me the Missions 770s are the natural upgrade to the Lintons. I feel like they improved on every area and still deliver
that relaxed, yet dynamic sound. I prefer them to the SHL5+s as they are beautiful with voices, their tonality is exceptional and
they are more dynamic, can play really loud if i want (i never do). Additionally their dynamic drive makes them more convincing and
involving at low volume levels which i truly value.

I havent heard the Super Lintons, but would like to….from the reviews, it has some very appealing characteristics. However, i think
the Missions have a closer sound signature to your Harbeths than do the Supers, a bit less in your face. You should try and audition both
since you already have a great pair of speakers.
""

Etcetera. Plenty of things that do not convince me. The Lintons, bot the normal and Super, are off the table for me.