Upgrade to LS50s from Q150s for near-field? Something else?

[mtaz]

Some of you may have seen my thread here, soliciting advice for speakers for my office. I ended up getting KEF Q150s.

Now I’m thinking I didn’t buy enough speaker. I’m really not satisfied with the clarity; they sound to me like a jumbled, muddy mess on some passages.

I can’t justify $1600 for a new pair of LS50s for my office, but I’m seeing them used on ebay in the six hundreds. I can still return the Q150s to Crutchfield, so it would be about a $300 upgrade.

I had almost ordered Elac Debut 3.0 DB63s instead. They’re very well reviewed, but I thought they might be too much for near-field listening. Also, I thought perhaps the concentric driver of the KEFs might be better here; I’m about 3½ - 4 feet from the speakers.

Would either of these be a worthwhile upgrade, for the kind of improvement I’m looking for? Or is there something else ($800 tops, new or gently used) that would provide some more “refinement,” for near-field semi-critical listening?

 

[Ktacos]

they sound to me like a jumbled, muddy mess on some passages.

Probably the room/placement, time for some EQ.

 

[staticV3]

KEF's 2-way bookshelves are known for their poor multitone performance.

Even their latest rendition does quite poorly in this regard:

KEF Q3 META Bookshelf Speaker Review

KEF Q3 META

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[VMAT4]

For $800 you could consider studio monitors by Kali, Focal, & Adam Audio.

 

[tw 2022]

KEF's 2-way bookshelves are known for their poor multitone performance.

Even their latest rendition does quite poorly in this regard:

KEF Q3 META Bookshelf Speaker Review

KEF Q3 META

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

View attachment 428160

Agreed, I might check out ceramic minis from Philharmonic for desktop use... They'd be the opposite of distorted....

 

[Ultrasonic]

For $800 you could consider studio monitors by Kali, Focal, & Adam Audio.

My thought too. Studio monitors are specifically designed/sold with nearfield listening in mind.

Personally I've had good experiences with Kali speakers (I own LP6 v2 and IN-8 v2) but I've not tried Focal or Adam to compare. Crutchfield don't look like they stock Kali speakers if it's relevant though.

Edit: I forgot to say I also own some Kef Q150s and I use one as a centre channel speaker for movies. I did try them briefly as a stereo pair for music and feel confident that the Kalis I've mentioned offer better clarity/detail.

 

[mtaz]

My thought too. Studio monitors are specifically designed/sold with nearfield listening in mind.

Personally I've had good experiences with Kali speakers (I own LP6 v2 and IN-8 v2) but I've not tried Focal or Adam to compare. Crutchfield don't look like they stock Kali speakers if it's relevant though.

Edit: I forgot to say I also own some Kef Q150s and I use one as a centre channel speaker for movies. I did try them briefly as a stereo pair for music and feel confident that the Kalis I've mentioned offer better clarity/detail.

Hmm, powered speakers have really never been on my radar for some reason. For one thing, I don't see nearly as many reviews, especially for "non-professional" applications.

 

[Ktacos]

I don't see nearly as many reviews

Lots of reviews of active speakers out there.

especially for "non-professional" applications.

Use case doesn't matter, the performance benefits in powered speakers with active filtering are found whether you're mixing or just listening on your couch.

 

[kemmler3D]

Hmm, powered speakers have really never been on my radar for some reason. For one thing, I don't see nearly as many reviews, especially for "non-professional" applications.

Most "reviews" are just a string of some guy's opinions with nothing to hang your hat on. Focus on high quality reviews - with measurements - and you'll fare better.

For $800 you might get lucky and find a pair of Genelec 8030s secondhand. This would probably be a definite audible upgrade.

I think if you're going to go for the ls50s you need to hold out for the Meta or wireless variants, iirc the older versions had issues.

Powered speakers in general tend to have better frequency response because they don't need to pump full power through a crossover, and they can even use DSP internally.

 

[uwotm8]

+1 to Adam and Genelec and I'd shortlist Dynaudio BM5/LYD 5 (these might be too small)/LYD 7 as well.
I have doubts that Kali LPs will be more than side grade if audiofool pleasures (details, clarity, sounstage etc) are required, not just proper tonality.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Hmm, powered speakers have really never been on my radar for some reason. For one thing, I don't see nearly as many reviews, especially for "non-professional" applications.

You obviously like Kef and they're actually a brand that have sold quite a lot of powered (active*) speakers for domestic use rather than for studios: LS50 wireless, LSX and LS60 wireless (and maybe others I'm forgetting). Yes active speakers are rarer for home use but they are becoming more common and there are technical advantages too. As well as using active crossovers (see note below) many also have built-in DSP that improves crossovers/frequency response and also allows for basic tone control and room-placement adjustment. I'm not saying they are universally better than using passive speakers and more conventional amplifiers but there are reasons that active speakers exist. Oh, and there are active speakers which are entirely analogue e.g. ATC.

You have specifically said that you're looking for speakers for near-field listening, which is also what all but the very largest studio monitors are designed for. More so than the vast majority of HiFi speakers in fact. It is though true that musical enjoyment isn't the primary purpose and so at least some can sound 'boring' compared to speakers aimed more at the domestic market. I trialed some Hedd Type05 Mk2 speakers that I returned for this reason (listening about 2.3 m away), and I've known other not like other brands. I mentioned Kali myself above as I've personally found these more to my taste for home use. I have LP6 v2 speakers I use as rear speakers for movies, although I have also tried them briefly for stereo use and I think they're very good for what they cost. I'm currently trialing a pair of IN-8 v2 speakers as main speakers. Generally speaking I think powered studio monitors offer much greater value for money that 'Hi-Fi' speakers and amps but with the caveat that the latter are generally styled and finished to look better in the home. Potentially not so important in your office though? As for reviews there are plenty but not generally for home use as you say. Erin of Erin's Audio Corner website and YouTube channel has reviewed plenty from a non-studio perspective though and is a good place to start. Note the videos have more subjective opinions than the website. Here's a few links to get you started:

Kali Audio IN-8v2 (Second Wave) 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

Kali Audio IN-8v2 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Kali Audio IN-5 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

Kali Audio IN-5 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Kali Audio LP-6v2 (Second Wave) 2-Way Studio Monitor Review

Kali Audio LP-6v2 2-Way Studio Monitor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

*Active means specifically that the power amp stages are after the crossover circuit so there is a separate amplifier channel for each speaker driver (or drivers covering the same frequency range). This offers performance advantages over using speakers with a passive crossover and amplifiers before this. Using an active crossover doesn't necessarily mean that the amplifiers have to be inside the speakers themselves but it is the most common arrangement. Some powered speakers don't do this and still use passive crossovers but these are generally cheaper and lower quality.

 

[Ultrasonic]

I have doubts that Kali LPs will be more than side grade if audiofool pleasures (details, clarity, sounstage etc) are required, not just proper tonality.

'Audiofool pleasures'? The things you've mentioned matter for studio use too.

My personal experience of owning both Q150 and LP6 v2 speakers is definitely that you're underestimating the LP6 v2s. Edit: or maybe overestimating the Q150s!

 

[AnalogSteph]

Erin reviewed the Q150s a while back, pre multitone testing unfortunately. They have a few quirks in FR and dispersion but overall look decent, though response linearity in the midrange isn't anything particularly special for a 5" class speaker, he's had several 4.5" ones better than that. (The midrange still looks better than the Q3 Metas', which I think may have some issues with woofer inductor core saturation and would be crying out for a mod.) And here's a detailed look at a Q100 driver. Small coaxes just aren't too great at high levels in general, it's hard to get rid of Doppler distortion for example.

Either way, unless you listen at particularly high levels, I'd consider these workable enough at the distances indicated. I would want to:
1. make sure they are properly elevated from the desk.
2. take some measurements and apply PEQ. Maybe it's actually the room messing you up.

If you suspect level handling to be an issue, apply a shelf or lowpass to the bass area for a test and see whether that improves clarity.

 

[mtaz]

Erin reviewed the Q150s a while back, pre multitone testing unfortunately. They have a few quirks in FR and dispersion but overall look decent, though response linearity in the midrange isn't anything particularly special for a 5" class speaker, he's had several 4.5" ones better than that. (The midrange still looks better than the Q3 Metas', which I think may have some issues with woofer inductor core saturation and would be crying out for a mod.) And here's a detailed look at a Q100 driver. Small coaxes just aren't too great at high levels in general, it's hard to get rid of Doppler distortion for example.

Either way, unless you listen at particularly high levels, I'd consider these workable enough at the distances indicated. I would want to:
1. make sure they are properly elevated from the desk.
2. take some measurements and apply PEQ. Maybe it's actually the room messing you up.

If you suspect level handling to be an issue, apply a shelf or lowpass to the bass area for a test and see whether that improves clarity.

Although I'm pretty sure at this point that I'm going to swap them for some better speakers (before the Crutchfield 60-day trial period expires), I do think I'll at least bring my Wiim Ultra upstairs temporarily to let it apply room correction and see how much difference that makes, out of curiosity if nothing else.

 

[mtaz]

You obviously like Kef and they're actually a brand that have sold quite a lot of powered (active*) speakers for domestic use rather than for studios: LS50 wireless, LSX and LS60 wireless (and maybe others I'm forgetting). Yes active speakers are rarer for home use but they are becoming more common and there are technical advantages too. As well as using active crossovers (see note below) many also have built-in DSP that improves crossovers/frequency response and also allows for basic tone control and room-placement adjustment. I'm not saying they are universally better than using passive speakers and more conventional amplifiers but there are reasons that active speakers exist. Oh, and there are active speakers which are entirely analogue e.g. ATC.

You have specifically said that you're looking for speakers for near-field listening, which is also what all but the very largest studio monitors are designed for. More so than the vast majority of HiFi speakers in fact. It is though true that musical enjoyment isn't the primary purpose and so at least some can sound 'boring' compared to speakers aimed more at the domestic market. I trialed some Hedd Type05 Mk2 speakers that I returned for this reason (listening about 2.3 m away), and I've known other not like other brands. I mentioned Kali myself above as I've personally found these more to my taste for home use. I have LP6 v2 speakers I use as rear speakers for movies, although I have also tried them briefly for stereo use and I think they're very good for what they cost. I'm currently trialing a pair of IN-8 v2 speakers as main speakers. Generally speaking I think powered studio monitors offer much greater value for money that 'Hi-Fi' speakers and amps but with the caveat that the latter are generally styled and finished to look better in the home. Potentially not so important in your office though? As for reviews there are plenty but not generally for home use as you say. Erin of Erin's Audio Corner website and YouTube channel has reviewed plenty from a non-studio perspective though and is a good place to start. Note the videos have more subjective opinions than the website. Here's a few links to get you started:

Kali Audio IN-8v2 (Second Wave) 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

Kali Audio IN-8v2 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Kali Audio IN-5 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

Kali Audio IN-5 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Kali Audio LP-6v2 (Second Wave) 2-Way Studio Monitor Review

Kali Audio LP-6v2 2-Way Studio Monitor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

*Active means specifically that the power amp stages are after the crossover circuit so there is a separate amplifier channel for each speaker driver (or drivers covering the same frequency range). This offers performance advantages over using speakers with a passive crossover and amplifiers before this. Using an active crossover doesn't necessarily mean that the amplifiers have to be inside the speakers themselves but it is the most common arrangement. Some powered speakers don't do this and still use passive crossovers but these are generally cheaper and lower quality.

It's not so much that I'm partial to KEF, it's just that I thought maybe concentric drivers might work better for my application.

I haven't entirely ruled out getting active speakers. But I've been looking at passive speakers for so long that there's a lot of inertia to overcome. :-/

 

[Ktacos]

Maybe it's actually the room messing you up.

I would advise doing this before buying a new speaker. If it's your room OP, and possibly desk reflection (usually a big peak at 150hz that makes everything super boomy and muddy), it doesn't matter what you buy as the next speaker will likely exhibit the same room issues.

Take a look at my genelec 8030c vs. Cnotes. Different speakers, same spot, nearly identical responses thanks to the room issues which dominate the speakers response. $140 vs. $1500 and physics still hits them the same.

 

[Ultrasonic]

It's not so much that I'm partial to KEF, it's just that I thought maybe concentric drivers might work better for my application.

I haven't entirely ruled out getting active speakers. But I've been looking at passive speakers for so long that there's a lot of inertia to overcome. :-/

Re. Kef my main point was that they're a well-known home audio brand that has made and sold a large number of active speakers . Just to make the point they becoming less niche than they used to be.

Totally get reluctance of something you've not considered before. For context I've been what most would describe as an audiophile for about 30 years and the vast majority of that only experience was with passive speakers. It was actually hearing a comparison of passive and active ATC SCM40 speakers at a HiFi show that first made me look into active speakers more, which in turn lead to be investigating/considering studio actives too.

I'd never suggest a blind (deaf!) speaker purchase unless there was a return option. If you can afford to the ideal would be to get something else to try before returning the Kefs so you can directly compare.

As the desk issue has been mentioned note that the Kalis I referred to have basic DSP that means dip-switches on the back provide different EQ settings for being on a desk vs free standing. Not sure how effective this may be though as I've only used mine free-standing. There are also switches to apply 2 dB treble and bass cuts or boosts (shelf filters).

 

[Ultrasonic]

I would advise doing this before buying a new speaker. If it's your room OP, and possibly desk reflection (usually a big peak at 150hz that makes everything super boomy and muddy), it doesn't matter what you buy as the next speaker will likely exhibit the same room issues.

Take a look at my genelec 8030c vs. Cnotes. Different speakers, same spot, nearly identical responses thanks to the room issues which dominate the speakers response. $140 vs. $1500 and physics still hits them the same.

View attachment 428787

For clarity it would be good if you could state the frequency range plotted on that graph.

Despite the similarity over the region shown I'm sure your two example speakers sound different, right? Room issues dominate at the lowest frequencies but increasingly less so as frequency increases. The more significant a low frequency problem the more it will dominate what is heard though and somewhat mask other qualities, which I suspect was your point.

I totally agree it's worth experimenting with what the Wiim can achieve btw.

 

[Ktacos]

For clarity it would be good if you could state the frequency range plotted on that graph.

20-800.

 

[mtaz]

I would advise doing this before buying a new speaker. If it's your room OP, and possibly desk reflection (usually a big peak at 150hz that makes everything super boomy and muddy), it doesn't matter what you buy as the next speaker will likely exhibit the same room issues.

Take a look at my genelec 8030c vs. Cnotes. Different speakers, same spot, nearly identical responses thanks to the room issues which dominate the speakers response. $140 vs. $1500 and physics still hits them the same.

View attachment 428787

Should I get something like this to elevate the speakers and hopefully reduce desk reflections?

Speaker isolation pads